The Sales Process That Wins Contractors More Jobs (Part 1)

Most contractors lose jobs before they ever walk on site — and they don't even realize it.

In part 1 of this two-part series, Clark and James break down the front half of the sales process: from the first call to the desk estimate review. This is where you either build a relationship that lands the job or get treated like every other contractor sending out bids.

They cover:

• Why you're not selling a kitchen — you're selling the experience
• How to flip a transactional client into a real conversation in the first 60 seconds
• The "guide vs. transaction" mindset that separates pros from everyone else
• How to build a desk estimate that actually moves the sale forward
• Why the pre-construction line item makes you more money and earns more trust
• How to align the client's budget and expectations with them, not at them
• Why texting numbers and details is killing your close rate
• The early seeds of the CEA that you should be planting from day one
• Where contractors lose the job between first contact and site visit — without even knowing it

If you've ever felt like you're just one of three bids on a spreadsheet, this is the episode that changes the game.

Part 2 drops next week — we talk on site, revise the estimate, and walk through how to land the signature.

If you're doing $350K–$2M a year in revenue, coaching pays for itself. A 5% efficiency gain alone covers the cost — and that's before we even talk about growth. 

We help contractors stop losing money on crews, change orders, and inefficient operations — and start scaling. 

Ready to have the conversation? Set up a free call at contractorcuts.com

Contractor Cuts is a weekly podcast for contractors who want to build a better business — covering sales, operations, hiring, finances, and everything in between.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Real Problem

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover the good, the bad, and the ugly of growing a successful contracting company.

Sell The Experience Not The Build

First Contact That Builds Trust

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Contractor Cuts. My name is Clark Turner. I'm James McConnell. Thanks for joining us today. Yesterday. Today we are talking about probably something that you're like, yeah, I've heard you guys talk about this before five times, and which we have. But this topic is guilty. We are taking a an angle towards this topic that is different than what we've done before because this is something that I keep talking to a lot of my clients about. Um, and this is the hardest part of the coaching side because some of this goes beyond just box A to box B and the systems and how to run this, and this is how we do this. This is really creating the personality and the salesmanship of you and your team when you're out with clients. And so there's more of an art to this. This isn't the science side, this is the art side. This isn't the, hey, here's why and how you do a client engagement agreement. This is the we've got to zoom out from what our conversation is with the client and really mold the relationship to where they trust us. They're willing to, they see that we know what we're talking about and they want to follow us down the path. And then how are we their guide to get this renovation done? So today is positioning, framing, sales. And this is the difference of the you can run our systems and land one out of 20 jobs because you're not doing this. It's this part of our of the systems and the training and the coaching side is we need to work on how we frame relationships with a client. Um, and I always thought, you know, my example I use a lot of times with guys is car salesmen. Now, I don't want to be a shisty used car salesman like, you know, like the imagery is. But what if you look at car salesmen, if you call and try to get a price over the phone, like, yeah, no, I'm we don't let price uh lose, we don't ever lose clients over price. Come on in, let's test drive it, let's talk about it. And every single time uh they try to get you, uh, you know, they'll keep you on the phone for 45 minutes before they actually give you the price of the vehicle. Because they want you to come in, drive it, understand what you're paying for, have the conversation, and and be linked like this guy knows me, he gets me, he wants the best for me, um, and he knows what he's talking about. I really like this car. It's worth paying what they're what they're asking for it. Um now, we're not trying to trick people into using us. What we want to do is it this isn't being a uh a mind game to trick people. This is more of a, I want to help them see how good, how much better we are than our competition. And I want to build value for them before we even get started. And as we go along, I want to be giving them more value than anybody else. And to give someone value, they've got to understand what you're doing and receive that value. And you've got to, and it's not just an exchange of goods. It's not just, here's my estimate, you want it or not. Because then it's just pricing at that point. Then it's literally, well, you're at 40 and he's at 35. So I'm going with him. Well, there's no value to spend that extra five with us because they don't understand what they're getting. Um, so today and next week, we are diving into this is a two-part series. We are covering today the intake when a first contact with the client, building the trust, doing a desk estimate, um, and reviewing the desk estimate. Next week, we're gonna go on site for the site estimate and then trying to get a signature. So, this is from first contact to signature, how we create a sales process that really lands every single client where they say, even if they don't choose you, they regret it making the choice on the front end. I really wish I can go with these guys. I just, I can't, I don't have to, I'm gonna have to go with this other company. Cool, understand. Let us know when it doesn't work out. Let us know when they hit you with change orders, let us know like what you're asking for is costing what I'm pricing. And so they have to make that decision with the full knowledge that that I'm gonna go with this other guy and I'll probably regret it, but it's a risk I gotta take because I don't I want to save money. Cool, awesome, do that. But before that, I'm not gonna lose you until you have to make that decision. And most guys lose people throughout this. So that's what we're diving into today and next week. It's a really good topic. Um, pretty excited about it. So, James. Yes, Michael. Uh, let's start with a before even doing the initial contact, the first contact, the initial call. I think reframing the sale is what I want to start with guys in their head. You're not selling a kitchen, you're selling the experience of receiving that kitchen. We are not tradesmen. And if you are a tradesman, you are selling the kitchen. And so there's a different uh, there's a different tactic on sales when I'm selling HVAC, when I'm selling electrical. When I'm a general contractor, commercial, residential, new construction, remodeling, whatever you're doing, you are not selling the product that they're gonna walk away with at the end. You're selling your knowledge, ability, and skill to give them the experience to where they don't get ripped off. They enjoy the experience. We do what we say we're gonna do. We protect their house and their investment or their project and their money. Uh, and the experience is I before they sign the dotted line, they know they the guarantees and the security is in place by working with us over somebody else, right? That's what we're selling. Uh, their real fear is getting screwed by the industry. And if we can show them how they don't get screwed and what we put in place to protect them, they're way more way more apt to go with us and the next guy. So transaction versus guide is the third part of the reframing the sale. What's the difference in how you show up? Am I transactional or am I a guide to help see their vision and go? All right. So reframing the sale into that, let's go first into the first contact. Let's go right for right versus wrong. Someone goes to your website and submits an inquiry, gets your email and and emails you know this first contact, outside of the them calling you first, and which we'll talk about in a second, any any other way that they digitally get a hold of you, what is your first move at that point?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Well, I'm gonna call them. Yes. Um let me back up really quick. Yeah, please, please. I think it's important. This is not, I have no data to prove anything, except for experience. Except for experience, but this is kind of how I see the landscape of the client-contractor relationship. Whenever there is this like ubiquitous low level of trust, GCs, lawyers, whatever. There's like these like jobs that people see and like, oh, they're all whatever. They're out to get me, they're out to get me mechanics. There is almost always there is this high level of knowledge needed to understand that profession that you've spent a lot of time learning the ins and outs of, and it is not a it is not a transferable thing. Like you can't just get somebody to understand everything that you understand, and then you add in the element of like how personal renovations are, it's a tinderbox. Like there is so much that somebody needs to understand to be able to follow you when you're explaining why things have to go in this order or why this thing costs this much, or why we can't know the final number until XYZ. And it gets very confusing. And when there's confusion, that's where the distrust comes in because they're having to rely on you and they don't know you all that well. So it just there's always going to be that. And until like the majority of people out there are operating where they're not robbing Peter to pay Paul, which is I think is not the genesis. The genesis of all this is we're doing work with a bunch of different people, and this person's not paying us for one reason or another, and the bills need to get paid. And so, okay, I'm gonna use the money from this job to do XYZ over here, and that's whenever that's always gonna blow up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

And that's and we're gonna prove the client right. We're gonna that they can't trust us.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yes, yeah. So, anyway, um I'll call them. I get the the the email comes in from the website. The first thing I'm doing is calling them, and I'm uh if I can get them on the phone, it's not always the case. I'll I'll always follow up with an email and a text, just letting them know that I I attempted to call. Email or text is fine, or we can get back on the phone, whatever. But the first thing I'm gonna get into is tell me about tell me more about your project because most people just give you a couple lines. Some people will give you a whole deal and you can jump right into that conversation with them. You might even be able to build out some type of estimate for them before you even call. But getting them on the phone and figuring out the why behind the renovation, what is the actual goal? Because it's not just a it's not just an addition. It's my kid is moving back from college and they're gonna live with us for the foreseeable future. Or my parents are getting elderly and we need them to move in here and we're gonna have a multi-generational living situation. Or we are moving, my we're I got a new job, we're relocating, but I wanna, we're in a great place, we have a lot of equity, we want to renovate it to get the most out of it we can. Great. Those are very different reasons to be renovating a home. Yeah. Um, and understanding what their ultimate goal is will help me understand how to best guide them when we're going through the estimation process. Because there's unless they have a lot of resources and the budget is not really important to them, they just know what they want and that's what they're gonna get. Great.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Most people are not in that boat. They're they have a lot of visions of what they want. And your job is to help them not on the first call, but to bring their budget in alignment with their or bring their expectations into alignment with what their budget is. Yeah. And that's not gonna happen in one shot. That is the we are starting the process of that with each client from the first phone call.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

I think to hone in on what you just said, lining up the budget with their expectation of finish that they want is where we lose clients the most along the path. Because if I'm guiding them, I'm trying to figure out how we merge those and with them. It's a conversation that we're having together that we're gonna talk about kind of throughout this. If I'm not, if I'm doing it the wrong way, here's the price. And they're on their own in their living room with their spouse, looking at saying, well, that budget doesn't meet my budget. If this is what what I ask for them, is that price, I can't use these guys. Bye, ghost, gone. Right. And and so how we guide them through this, if we can sum it down to one thing, it would be I want to be with them to form those together, not me create them and pass it to them and hope that it matches what their what their goals are.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Um, and that's good. I think understanding their why before their what, like you just said. Why are you doing this? You know, we've been saving kids just one way to college, finally gonna splurge on ourselves, and I want that brand new kitchen. Cool. We're probably doing high-end finishes. We're, you know, it's it's design heavy, probably, because she's been thinking about it for the last 18 years, raising these kids in there.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Um, versus I'm moving and I want to get the best bang for my buck out of this house. That's a totally that those are two kitchens. One's gonna be$22,000 and one's gonna be$122,000. Uh, and so understanding the why is part of them trusting that we're helping them merge the budget and the what.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Right. And when you're asking these questions, when you start, when you start there instead of getting right into brass tacks, uh they're talking about their life with you. It's like you're well, let's put the numbers aside. What's going on? What's the what's the reason behind the renovation? Oh, that's exciting. Where are you moving to? Oh, what do you do for work? Oh, that's really interesting. You're getting so much information, number one, that's helping you understand. You start forming opinions of your own, yeah. Of like, what are the questions I'm gonna ask? What are the suggestions I'm going to make based on what I'm getting from them? But also you're building that relationship. They're you're learning about them, they're probably learning about you a little bit, not a ton, just very, you know, you don't absolutely don't want to be the focal point of the conversation, but there's a give and a take. Yeah. And the more you can build that rapport, the the better off the whole situation's gonna be because you're disarming them. You're you're through how you're interacting with them, you're helping them understand. Yeah, oh, this isn't a transactional thing. I like I'm I'm following their lead here and letting them kind of guide me. You know a lot about your client when they won't let you guide them through that conversation, and they're just like, yeah, I mean, we're just we just need a renovation done. So I just need somebody to give me numbers.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah. I I think a good metaphor for me is like we've all been to a really nice restaurant where when you're making your reservation, they're asking, is it a special occasion? Uh, and we've all been to the dive restaurant that is uh it's gonna be cheap tacos and I'm here for some strong margaritas, but uh the experience I know isn't gonna be there. And you know what do you want, sweetheart? Yeah. You will sloppy juice. Yes. And and the difference of those is when if I went to a nice restaurant, I'm I'm gonna buy a steak and I sit down and the waiter comes up and says, All right, what do you guys want to eat? Excuse me? Like, what? Uh you know who I am? Yeah, I mean, there's there is this abruptness of like, oh, they're just trying, like it's an exchange. They they are taking my order and gonna bring the food out and I'm gonna give the money. Versus when a waiter comes over and says, Hey, happy anniversary. Is that what I read that that's what we're celebrating today? Congratulations. How many years have you guys been married? That's amazing. My name's Clark. Have you ever been to this restaurant before? Let me tell you a little bit about this. And we do this, our chef does it this way. Are you guys like, do you have any allergies? Do you have any things that you're leaning towards? And they're a guide to that restaurant's menu. They're helping you understand and saying, Okay, well, you know, you you you love steak. Great. So let's talk about that. Your wife's vegetarian. Well, let me tell you about our options over here. And that waiter is gonna get three times the tip than the other guy that walks up and is like, what do you guys want? Do you have your order ready? Right. And it's a the difference of it is I'm gonna pay for that experience because I'm seen, I'm heard, it's curated around what I'm looking for. And the the overall experience for the rest of the meal, they start off well. And I love, I love Clark the waiter, who who I just met. And you know, like there's this relationship there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Um, that's what we're trying to build. On that, on that same topic, no, whenever I'm asking a waiter or a waitress, like, what's great here? Like, what is the thing that every everybody likes? And what is the sleeper dish that like more people should get? Immediately, like a a transactional wait staff is going to give you the highest price item on that menu, regardless of whether they like it or they've had it. It's like, oh well, the surf and turf is amazing. It's like, yeah, no.$87. I bet it is. Yeah. But when someone's like, you know, honestly, the grouper sandwich is phenomenal. Yeah. And it's like$18. And they're like, everything else is get the cuckoos and get our French fries. They're amazing. Yeah. Like that means a lot to me as the consumer. And I think most people are like, most people sniff that out very quickly. Like very few people think, oh, well, wonderful. I'll get the surf and turf because that's your recommendation.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah. And are you more of a this guy or that type of guy? Like, do you like this? Because we got kind of right. And they hone it into what they think will be best for you for what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Um, James, in the first 60 seconds on that initial phone call that you have with the client, what are you looking for to qualify or dequalify them? Like what's what's the what's the uh what's telling them if they're a right, what's telling you in that first 60 seconds of the conversation if they're a good fit or not?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Um when they reciprocate the non-transaction, I'm really looking for that. And I'm trying to give them every opportunity to get there with me. And a lot of phone calls don't start that way. They start transactional and guarded. And when you start asking qu you I always say, Do you have like 10 to 15 minutes to chat through this? Because I think I think I have a a a handful of questions that we could get into. And yeah, and if they don't have the time right, then great. Let's set up a time to talk because it's more important than me just getting your address and getting someone on site. Yeah. So I'm looking for the reciprocity. And when I when I get that, even if I have to fight for it, that's great. Yeah. Because it exists. They're they have the capacity to do that. And some people just don't. They have it in their minds that, like, I'm gonna have to go through six of these phone calls and get just everybody blowing smoke up my butt for you know however long this takes, and then I got to choose someone, and then someone's gonna screw me over anyway. So like it's not gonna work with them. Yeah, they're gonna have a bad time no matter what, if that's where they're coming from. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yeah, I I think it's, you know, to keep going on the restaurant example, the metaphor. The uh if a client walks in, if someone walks into your restaurant, sits down, and they're like, Hey, you know, have you ever been here, you know, starting the the intro call with them when you're standing at their table to take their order, uh, and they say, I'm looking for a$14 steak. Okay, we don't have those here. Uh, I've got some, you know, some of the more more uh common cuts that are a little less expensive. We've got the high-end cuts that are a little more expensive. We don't have a$14 stake here. Well, well, I got one at Waffle House three weeks ago for$14. Okay, this isn't Waffle. And so, like the the exchange of goods that you're talking about, the, oh, this isn't what we sell here. What they're looking for is the cheapest price of something, not not the quality or not whatever we are selling.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I think that's the identifying that up front is is the most more and calling that out, right? On a phone call when a client's like, I just need, I just need a quote, we're we're selling the house. Just okay, just trying to understand what you're looking for. Is this kind of like the absolute base grade, cheapest, just trying to get something done, or are you looking for quality? And you start having the quality versus price conversation, not trying to kind of fish, but actually asking those questions up front to them.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

And it's not, it's not on every, it's definitely not on every call, but there's been a lot of times where I've in trying to get the reciprocity, I'm getting stonewalled, I'm getting stonewalled, and they're like, I just really need someone to give me numbers. Yep. And I will, like a last stitch effort, I'll be like, listen, it's gonna take me, once I have all this information, it's gonna take me at least an hour to put this together before anybody even comes on site. Yeah. And I do that for free. Yeah. And then I send somebody out on site. If that number looks good, the scope looks good, you feel good about the everything we've put together, send somebody out on site. They're gonna be on, they're gonna drive out there, they're gonna be at your house for at least an hour, then they're gonna drive back and they're gonna spend another hour editing it, and all of that's for free.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And so my goal is to make sure that what you are expecting to happen on site gets captured in verbiage, and we figure out the numbers, best approximation that we can until we uh get guys into due diligence, because we will talk a little bit about due diligence. And uh it you'd be surprised at how often that conversation breaks through the wall. Yeah. Because it's like, hey, it's it's like saying without saying, I'm not just coming out there. Yeah, I'm not gonna do it. Because my time is more valuable than just coming out there. I don't know anything about your budget. You won't tell me. That's fine. A lot of people are uncomfortable with that. I still don't really know fully what you want to do because you didn't send me pictures. I'm trying to work with you. Yeah, you're not trying to work with me. And so without saying any of that, I'm saying that by kind of drawing a soft line in the sand. Yes. But at the end of the day, if I really want to pursue that job, maybe I am gonna just send somebody out there if we don't have anything else going on or whatever, but if we're Busy, I'm not gonna go out there. Yeah.

Desk Estimates That Prevent Ghosting

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah. I I think that that goes into our next phase, which is the desk estimate. Um, on that intake, we're trying to gather as much information as possible. Would you mind texting me a few photos? I'll I'll text you from myself so you can send those over to me. Let's get some photos of the place. Uh, I've I've taken notes during our call of kind of what you're looking to get done. Next step that we do is a desk estimate. Now, this is the most confusing part for new guys coming in because there is uh, as we say, you're gonna do a desk estimate on every job. We're gonna present it on most jobs to clients. But there are some times that we don't even show it to the client. Um, this is gonna be a tool for us to use in how we prep for the site visit, how we prep. And we've done a ton of uh we did a deep dive on a podcast on um desk estimate. So you can go back and listen to one of those. But on the desk estimate, what we're trying to do is take from our first initial call to get to our second point of contact, our second date with having the numbers pulled together, some scope pulled together, and be able to present it to the client, ideally over a Zoom with the numbers in front of you, in a way that the client can see that we're starting. It's the first step of bringing their expectations and their budget together. It's it's a very loose touching of those two things, but it's it is it's kind of directionally what path are we walking down? I'm seeing a hundred grand for what you're looking for. Oh no, I got a budget of 50 max. Okay, let's let's change directions. So can we reuse all your appliances and not go high-end um sub-zero fridge? Like no. Okay. Uh well, well, I need those. So this is the very first touch. But again, we're not just sending them a quote and saying, here's our estimate. If it looks good, we'll come out on site. Not how you do it. You're also don't just take those notes and then go on site next. The desk estimate is a phase where we're putting some pen to paper, metaphorically, you're in the software building out your estimate. And this is a spot where guys really have to hone in what a desk estimate is, because it's not going to be a one sentence of what we're doing and an$80,000 price point at the bottom. It's not going to be a four-hour written, 78-line item, 10-page estimate. It's somewhere in the middle. And so figuring out how much you put into this is going to be a number of factors. And it kind of goes into a gut feeling for some of this, but it also goes into what do they need to see? How detailed were they on the phone call? How much do they actually know that they know? And how much do they know that they don't know? Or, you know, like, I really want this, I really want this. I don't know. I think we want to change the cabinets out. I'm not quite sure. I don't really have what that will look like, whether we paint them or change them. Cool. That's good to know. So we're getting that part of the information from them. And we're going to present it of a so we're not wasting each other's time. I'd love to show you this, kind of get you to a spot to where you can understand what I'm putting together and make sure that I've captured everything before we come out on site. A lot of times say, yeah, just send it over. Well, I'm putting it together. Do you have five minutes? I got some questions about from our initial call about what you're looking for. Even if I've got it finished, I'm always saying, I got some questions. Can you hop on a call? Let's hop on a Zoom. If they can't hop on a Zoom, cool. I'm going to get on the phone. I'm going to walk them through it. Well, the way we walk our clients through it is we pull the PDF of the estimate up on screen and we go line by line explaining why we put each line there. Don't screen share the software.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

It has your internal numbers in it.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Don't screen share the software. Put the software away. Pull your actual estimate out so they can't see what you're paying your vendors and your material and your profit. And what we're going to do is display it out and be like, okay, right here. This is our uh pre-construction line item. Let me tell you about why we do this. We're selling ourselves for being a better contractor than the other guys by telling them that they're going to pay us$1,500 more than the other guys for this one line item. It is a master uh uh line that if you do it well, this line item makes you more money and makes the client say, This is the guy I want. The pre-construction line item. How we plan that out and how we argue with the client, not argue, but how we how we justify it to the client of listen, everyone does this work. Most guys do it throughout the job, and you're gonna get hit with change orders. For us, we pull the dollars out of those line items, put it into a pre-construction line item, and I'm gonna spend all of my time doing that so we uncover anything hidden before we swing a hammer so you don't get hit with a bunch of change orders. That's the reason we do the due diligence line item. Um, and so we, you know, pit talk about that, talk about this is the demo. You know, you said you're gonna demo this, this, and this. I have two dumpsters on here because the amount of debris, oh, you don't, okay, you already have, you don't want us to haul this stuff off. Great. I'm gonna take that away. I'm gonna delete this off. And so we're talking about the line items kind of 30,000 foot view. And I'm gonna do this and you want this done. And so as we're going through those line items, they are able to assess that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And if they get to a line on that doesn't make sense, we're gonna talk about it, right? And so, well, oh, okay. So you don't want the whole house repainted. You were just saying the kitchen. I thought you said the whole house. Yeah. So that$8,000 line item for the main floor paint, that that's gonna drop down to three. So we can knock five grand off this estimate already. Let's keep going, right? And so I'm kind of tallying up the pluses and the minuses as I'm going through the desk estimate with them, kind of a 30,000 foot view. And at the bottom we get to it and say, hey, so the total for this kitchen, we're at 68,000, but per our conversation, it's gonna be closer to 60 because we got about eight grand of stuff that I overpriced on this. Is that within the ballpark of what you're looking for? Any questions about this so far? Right. And so it's not like an ending, but it's a conversation of we good, is that good? Why don't we set up an on-site estimate? Tell me, make notes on what I just said. Is there anything you'd like is there anything that you would do differently than what then than the way I just said it? Did I miss it?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I was thinking about fruit by the foot.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Man, have you tried gush or something? Uh running through that desk estimate though, when you're laying that out, walking them through it, what is the mentality for you? Like, yeah, where are guys missing it on that?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So this is this is uh we're probably gonna go off on multiple tangents, but we'll we'll do what we can to to harness it. I personally do not think that you are that you should be putting together an estimate solely based on what the client is telling you that they want. Yes. Whether they say this or not, what they need from you is your experience and your knowledge and your understanding of what all is included in what they want. What are the pitfalls? What are the other options? If we don't do X, then what do we do? What are the things that they're not thinking about? And those things I put into my desk estimate. And that's the reason I want to talk to them about it, because they're gonna read my estimate, and there's gonna be$15,000 extra dollars in there that's not on the other guys because to your example of like the paint. Well, we just we just want to paint the kitchen because that's where we're doing the work. Okay, that's totally fine. We gotta redo the lighting plan because we're messing around with your cabinet layout and the ceiling, there's no break in the ceiling going into your living room. Yeah, so unless you're okay with a distinguishable line that you will always see, maybe your friends don't always notice it, but there's going to be a line on the ceiling going from this room to that room if you don't want us to paint over there. Yeah. Also, this wall like goes around, it's like a 45-degree neo wall. We have to paint this wall, and because we're taking off the trim here, here, and here, we got to touch up here, and then we have to paint that whole wall. Yeah. So it's it's not just the kitchen. We could just paint the kitchen, but it's gonna be incomplete. Yep. And from our conversation, you when you're when this is done, like you want it to feel absolutely complete. You're paying a lot of money for this. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't think about that. You didn't. That's what I'm doing. I'm thinking, I'm being thoughtful all the way through this, thinking through your project and where are the extra dollars that I don't want to have to bring up to you two months into this. I want to bring it up to you now. And so getting an opportunity to walk them through that. Uh the other thing is with um their expectation versus their budget. They using the example of the parent moving in. Yes, we want our parents to move in. I'm just so excited. I love I have all the stuff on Pinterest, I have all the stuff on Instagram that I follow and save, and I'll I'll send you all of it. I really like these hidden bookshelves where you can open it and it goes into a room. And I want that room to have like judges paneling, and we'll have a Murphy bed, and there's gonna be this bathroom, and I like this type of floor, and it's like, that's all great. This has turned into a pretty substantial renovation because it's it's all high dollar bells and whistles. Yeah. And so once you can get like, I'll pull the things out that are superfluous. Like, we don't need to have a hidden bookcase. So I'm gonna make that a completely separate line item so that when we're walk, when we're talking through it and they're like, that's just out of our budget, I can say, not a problem. Take it out of the sticker shop. Let's take this one out. We don't need that one. We can take this out and we can put just regular, regular old LVP flooring all the way through. We don't have to do hardwoods. It's gonna be completely separate from the rest of the house. So you don't it's it's in it's situated in such a way that you really don't need to have the same flooring through this area. That'll save you a lot of money in and of itself. And so you can get your budget down from well, we're at 120 and now we're at 96 because we took out the superfluous items that are not necessary for the goal. Yeah, the goal of this is to have your parents move in and be able to live with you. The goal is not to have an Instagram ready show house that you can bring your friends to and show off, although that would be great. And we can do that, and we can do that, but there's a cost associated.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

But the next guy that I'm competing against probably isn't bidding all that stuff that way. It's like, well, we'll figure that stuff out later. So here's my bid. And we we're not apples to apples, but we are now 20 grand over him. Yeah.

Preconstruction And Due Diligence Value

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Uh and uh go ahead. Sorry. Also, all of the areas that I have, there's ambiguity. I'm okay, we're we're doing this entire renovation. I don't, we uh you don't have a survey. We are adding square footage, we're gonna have to have a survey. We haven't talked about engineer, we're gonna need an engineer that's gonna cost about this, and then we don't even know what that engineer is gonna say about the existing slab or the depth of the slab that we need to put in here because we have we don't have a soil sample yet. Yeah. So these are all things that we need to talk through, and I can't even give you an answer on those until we go through due diligence. So let me tell you about due diligence and why do we do due diligence? So sometimes, depending on the project, I'll either show them due diligence in the very beginning, like depending on what our first conversation was. Yeah. If someone's like really reciprocating what I'm putting down, we can talk about due diligence immediately because they're gonna be very receptive to it. Yeah. If they're being very transactional, I have to really fight for it. I'm gonna wait on the due diligence conversation. I'm gonna talk to them about the desk estimate and then show them due diligence at the end and say, this is how I'm going to protect you by breaking this off completely separate. Due diligence is its own thing. So when you pay me for due diligence, you're signing just for due diligence, not for the rest of this project. And we are gonna go through everywhere I've made a note where it's here's a note about this line item. There's ambiguity here. There might be dollars associated with that ambiguity that we need to figure out. That is what I'm taking care of during due diligence. We're gonna figure out what the deal is. And even after due diligence, there's gonna be a time like the demo has to happen before we can do a benchmark walk after demo to say, okay, what is now exposed that we couldn't have known yet? And when you when you get the opportunity to walk them through that, you might lose that client because they realize that the budget that they have is not going to give them the thing that they want.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

But you just the the people budget. But you also fast forward two weeks and three visits and four other phone calls before you the other guy finds that out and loses the job in two weeks from now. Or they go with the other guy because he's half your price and they call you in three months and say, All right, uh, I fired him. I need you back. Yeah. Right. Because this is what it is, and I'm trying to help you. I think one thing that guys stumble on that we can also talk about on the desk estimate, and because all of this is before we've even been on site, what James is talking about. Seems like a lot of work. Seems like a lot of work. Um, it's it's a lot less work than the way you're doing it. I'll tell you that. The with the desk estimate, the line items that James is talking about. One a good example, we I was helping uh a coaching client with an estimate the other day. You client wanted to do some renovations in their basement. Uh, one of the rooms, hey, we're gonna throw down, throw down carpet uh in this room. Well, it's a it's a it's a slab basement. Don't do that. And there is tile on top of the slab. And and you can put carpet directly on top of that tile. It's not gonna be a good finish. There's a bunch of stuff you can do to it, but that's what they were saying they wouldn't have done. And the guy I was coaching was like, I know they're gonna want to tear it up. They're not gonna be happy with it. They're gonna want what we should do is X, Y, and Z. And I said, Absolutely. But if you quote that, you're competing against four other guys quoting it that are just gonna price tile and nothing else, or price carpet and nothing else. Uh, and so we put a line item for what they asked for with the price for carpet only, and then a second line item was zero dollars. So the bottom final number doesn't change. And in the in the description of that second line item for zero dollars, strongly suggests tearing up tile, doing this floor coating, doing, you know, uh floating the cart concrete and all this other stuff that we wanted to do. So strongly suggests this this would cost around four grand to do it this way, but we'll think you'd be a lot, and so we can discuss that during the decades.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

This is not included in the current dollar amount of the scope. It's a line that should be written in that.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yes. And so they can see this isn't included yet, but from what you told me, you wanted X. But from my experience, you're not gonna be happy with X. I think Y, you'll be happier, and let me tell you the difference. And if you don't want Y, that's okay. We'll stick with X. I price it for what you asked. But that keeps us in the competition, apples to apples with the other guys that that that they're talking to. And also, I heard you, I see you, and I'm thinking through stuff you're not gonna be happy with that you've never experienced before. So it's building the trust bucket. You're you're helping your numbers look better, you're quite giving them what they ask, but guiding them along with it. Um, I think one other spot that people get stuck on on the desk estimate is how much detail? How, how, how long should it be, and what do it do? I think one of the the ways to understand it is I want to have um ballpark budgets put on each line item, is the view. I'm not quoting them electrical for 13 grand. I just know we got to replace all the electrical in this investment property. And last time it cost me 13 grand for a house about this size. So I'm putting 13 grand down there. And I tell them that. I say, listen, for this house this size, it's 13 grand. I don't know if you need a new subpanel on the box. I don't know what uh if we need to replace, like there could be stuff that ticks us up to 18 to 20 grand. There could be stuff that we could reuse once we get in there and it goes down to eight grand. I I don't know that, but I know a full rewire on a house this size costs around 13 grand, right? If you don't know that information, text your electrician. Don't make him come out to the house. Hey, I got a 3,200 square foot house. Uh, they want a full rewire. It looks basic. Here's a picture of the panel. What's ballpark? Ballpark for me. Give me a round number. Uh 13 grand. Cool. Thank you. I'll let you know if uh I need you to get on site and we'll thank you. That wasn't so hard, was it?

SPEAKER_00 39:33

So it's it's a good thing. Oh man, I really got to get out there and see it. I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. I want to do that too.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

We will be doing that next week. Let's put a budget before the client.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

I really don't like giving out numbers. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Just trust me. Uh so after we put the uh the anything else to add to desk estimating, like like the detail level of it. Um, yeah, high to low.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

The detail, um if you don't if you are new to the software and you don't have your line items built out or you don't trust your line items, um I think what you're saying is great. That's like the level of detail that you can provide that's not gonna take you six hours to put together. Uh but the more detail that you can provide on the front end that doesn't lock you in.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

There's this fine line that you need to walk of providing a lot of good information, but not locking yourself in to where you get to the site estimate, and the the conditions are just different, but uh materially nothing's really changing. Like you did a great job on your desk estimate, but for whatever reason, uh square footage is a little bit different, this, that, or the other. I'll even put it, I'll even put in sometimes if I have like, oh, here's a uh a set of rough drawings. Like, I'll do square footage because it makes it easier for me to be like, this is what you gave me. I'm not guessing it at the square footage number. Yeah. I'm guessing a little bit at the labor, but not a lot. I'm guessing a little bit on the material, but I know my range of LVTs and that's what you want. And so putting honor honoring the detail that they give you. Yeah. The amount of detail that they come up, they come to the table with uh is needs to be honored. So if somebody's giving you nothing, you can give them uh a great desk estimate without spending too much time on it because you're gonna be within the range in a reasonable sense based on what they gave you. If somebody gives you a drawing set and like they've already met with a designer and they have all the selections and they've already uh met with an engineer and they have an engineer letter based on what needs to happen, there's a lot more work that needs to go into that desk estimate. Because someone's getting that job. Someone's getting that job, they're going. Yeah. And in these cases, this is where a desk estimate is really not even something you necessarily need to do and present to the client.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

They don't want to walk through that entire thing with you because I guarantee you, someone that has all that information is shopping multiple multiple guys. And they're further down the path. They're further down the path. We don't need to walk that front end of the path of helping them in discovery. Right. So that's one where I'd say, great, I'm gonna put something together, but let's set up a time to meet on site, what works for you, and we'll show up with a desk estimate. Yeah, you're still writing it full right, yes, high detail. Because you want to be on that second date when you show up, not on the first date, and your project manager or you can show up with a fully built-out template, and you're walking through and asking them questions about the specifics and not about the general idea. Yeah.

Use Text For Logistics Only

SPEAKER_01 42:55

I I I think uh two things came to my head over what you just said. Number one lightning. Shut my brain. Next week, we're gonna talk about setting up and selling the CEA, trying to get them to do that and what that looks like and how to do that. We uh I think a good question that someone asks is how early do you do it? And can we do it like on the like when do you start start laying the groundwork for it? Number one, on any of these phone calls, if they have a concern that comes up that is spoken to in the CEA, you got to know the CEA well enough to be able to pull that line out and be like, actually, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna sit down and do a full deep dive for an hour into everything you need to expect from a renovation. But just to answer that, like from our client engagement agreement talks about this, is that our payment method is X, Y, and Z. And we do it this way because of that, and it protects you. And so I'm gonna find opportunities to plant some CEA seeds to address any concerns that someone might have. But I'm not necessarily like, and um, thanks for this information. I'm gonna write up a desk estimate, then we're gonna do a site estimate with you. And if that looks good, I'm gonna have you do a CEA with me, and that's where you're gonna sign paperwork. Cool. Well, buddy. That's a lot, right? And so I'm not gonna be selling it hard, but if it comes up, I will start planting some of some of those seeds during that conversation to build that trust. Number second thing I thought about when you were talking text messaging. A lot of guys use text messaging like as their main form of communication. I would say the rule for me, and uh if I could make wave a magic wand to everyone listening, your rule for text messaging is it is a logistics help. I'm gonna do logistics with text messaging. I'm not gonna give information through text messaging. So a text might be, hey, do you have time tomorrow to look over the quote? Logistics. Hey, I'm uh we're still good for tomorrow at three for the onset estimate. Logistics, right? It's what when, how, who, what. I'm not giving any sort of information over text message outside of asking them to text me photos. Um, I might ask a clarity question from our conversation that we just hung up on from 10 minutes ago. But information about the job should be a phone call, not a text message. We should not text. Numbers, we should never text um uh line item and questions about stuff because I want to be their guide, not downloading information from them. And so I want to have, I want to, when I ask about the carpet over the tile, I don't want to shoot a text. Do you want the carpet over the tile or are you thinking of demoing the tile? What I want to do is call them up and have the conversation. Hey, I know you said you just want to throw a carpet down here. Were you envisioning having the tile come up, or you just want to put it on top? And let me tell you the difference of them and why I suggest one way. If we put it on top, I'd still want to do some self-leveling to fill in the the grout lines. But here's here's what I don't like about it. Right. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna be their expert on the phone. I can't get that over text message. So when you're using text messaging with clients, that's okay for logistics. There's any sort of information that we're gathering or giving that needs to be on a phone call so you could be the expert guiding them, not just downloading information from them.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah. Um, finally, you wonder how I know I need to be calling instead of texting. I would love that. I'm just I'm sitting there on my phone and I'm like, how do I even respond to this? And I'll like start it and be like, no. And I'll start it again. I'll just be like sometimes 10 minutes. I'm literally trying to figure out how to respond. And I'm just like, I just need to call them. Yeah. Do you have a minute for a call?

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Yeah. And they loved it. I mean, most of the time, clients would prefer a call. Um, just this is their biggest spend of their life. Like, this is an important thing. They're they're just trying to get that conversation with you going and they're texting you. And I've I've rare, I mean, I've I can't think of a time that I've ever said, Hey, do you have time for a phone call? And they're not, and they're like, No, just send me the text back. Like it's like, yeah, I do. Can you call me after five? I'm working till then. Yeah, absolutely. Let's call. So 515 call. Um, we've built a desk estimate. It's someone that is eligible to actually walk through it. It's kind of one of those discovery, I think they want to do it. We we need to, I think a desk estimate presentation will really sell this job. Um, which uh what give me a percentage off the top of your head of presenting the desk estimate over a Zoom versus building it and showing up with it? What what are you 50-50, 80% of the time you're showing walking a desk estimate, 20% of the time? What what's where do your numbers off the top of your head?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Like how often do we do a Zoom desk estimate?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Yeah, where you actually present the desk estimate over a Zoom to the client prior to showing up on site.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

I would say it's less about the this percentage of jobs. It's it's like the jobs that exceed a certain amount of dollars, which I think probably falls around like the 80 to 90 mark. It's like we're pretty much always doing Zoom reviews for those. Unless it's like a VA job or it's old school uh husband-wife that like they would really rather somebody like they don't really know how to do Zoom.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

So you would say probably 80 to 90 percent if it's a six-figured project, maybe 50-50 if it's below that.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Yeah. I'm just yeah, for people to wrap their heads around like what what they're doing. And I think some of like you said, there's hot how hot of a lead and how much time do I have? I uh I'll I'm gambling every time I spend a minute on this job that money will come back for it. And so is it worth the gamble? Um, and then number two, how far down the path are they already? It like you said, like if they've already got an architect, an engineer, and an interior designer, they're past the help me think about it stage. And they're on the I know exactly what I want. I just need to find the person that understands my vision of what we're doing. I'm not happy yet with what I found out there to execute. Yes. And so that one, I'm jumping in the truck and getting out there.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Um, and so it's kind of how how far down the path, the first part of the path of discovery of what they want and helping them figure that out. That's what the desk estimate's for. And the side estimate too. This the desk estimate's really prepping for the side estimate.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

And I have one other, one other one that I will pretty much not do a desk estimate for. Yeah. Just the other day, a guy called looking for a renovation, an addition. He had such a strong accent that I I couldn't, it was hard to get like the preliminary information. And I was like, there's no way that I execute this on any level that's going to be like representative. Positive for us. Yes. Yeah. So I was like, great, all this information, awesome. When are you available? Because I'd love to come out there.

unknown 49:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah. No, that's that's good.

Follow Through Or Lose The Client

SPEAKER_01 49:49

It's it's a tool to help sell, not a gate that they have to walk through before uh getting approval for me to come on site. Um, once you do that, whether you do it live or not, I am not sending a quote with a dollar on it ever, ever, ever, ever, ever to a client without either presenting it over Zoom or having a phone call about those numbers first. Hey, I think I've got some, I've got your estimate almost done. Let's hop hop on a call. I'd love to show it to you. Then this is on the estimate or the desk estimate. I am always, always, always present when those numbers are presented for the first time to guide them, to talk through them, to get the reaction, to see their face, whether it's, oh, or ugh, like you can you can read someone when you're on the phone with them of their their tone going up or down. They're they all of a sudden went from bubbly to really quiet. Oh, this is not the contractor for me. Um, there's so much data you can gather on that trail that I don't want them jumping off that path that I'm guiding them down without me even knowing because I'm not I'm not present for that decision that they made. So we're not going to email estimates ever until we walk them through it. So, hey, I've got the desk estimate, and you have time to hop on to Zoom. Just send it over to me and we'll talk about it. It's never that. It's never, I've got your estimate complete. Do you have time to review it? It's always, always, always, hey, I'm getting, I'm getting close to finishing up your estimate. Do you have a couple minutes to help me to answer a couple questions so we can finalize this? And I'm gonna get them on there. I'm gonna ask them three questions that I already know the answer to, and then I'm gonna show them the numbers and we're gonna talk through them. But we're never on the desk or on the site gonna just send an estimate to them. All right, the desk estimate review call. This is the last thing we're gonna cover today. Um, number one, the goal of this is in what I'm presenting to the client at least. I am prepping for a site estimate. That's what we're doing here on this. Like I'm just getting gathering my information so when we get on site, I can, I can or my guys can spend the time really understanding the project instead of being a note taker. That's always my line of why I'm trying to do a desk estimate with them, right? It's the I want to set up um the on-site. I'm always expecting that. It's never a, well, let's do a desk estimate. And if everything looks good, then I'll schedule to come out there and waste my time. But if you're not worth it, I'm not gonna come out there. Like it's not that. It's a, hey, yep, we're gonna do an on-site on Friday. I'd love to hop on and kind of review some of this before we get out there so I can be prepped and ready. I'm such a planner. I'm, you know, I'm high detail, right? Dropping all of those into the client's brain as to how I'm taking this seriously and spending my time before coming out there prepping for everything. Where do you from first contact through presenting the desk estimate on a on a Zoom call and right before we go out on site, where on that process do you think is the biggest chance of losing the client? Um ask me the question again? From when they first talk to you until I've presented the desk estimate on a Zoom and we're going out there tomorrow for an on-site estimate. Along that process, where is the biggest mistakes or the biggest thing that can be done incorrectly that you lose clients during that front-end process?

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Um anything doing anything that is not what you said you're gonna do. So missing uh not emailing when you said you were gonna email and I'll have that estimate to you by Tuesday. Calling when you said you were gonna call. Um honestly it it kind of flies a little bit in the face of what you were just talking about, but I think one of the biggest areas is people that don't want to do uh the review, whether over Zoom or phone. And you can lose it, you can absolutely lose it there because if you're not willing to send it and they're not willing to get on a zoom or get on a call and they're like, I just I have so much going on, I don't have time for that. I really just want you to send me the thing and I'll I'll look it over and then we can we'll we can schedule it right now and talk about it later. I'm gonna do everything I can to get on that Zoom or get on that call. Yeah. I want the Zoom first. I'll be like, what about a phone call? Can we just hop on a phone call? I asked you. I don't I don't have space for that. I will send an email, not with not that takes me an hour to write. I need to just call out a couple things specifically so that because they're not gonna get to hear me tell them and walk them through. And I know they're not gonna read all the notes that I put in the estimate, they're just gonna go look at the bottom line number. But whatever time I have invested in that job, I I 100% lose that job if I'm not going to give it to them. Yeah. So last like the last stitch effort, I will send it and just hope that they honor their part of the agreement saying that they will talk to me. And I used to really struggle with that because it's like, no, like I spent so much time on this. I put a lot of thought into this and I really want to share it. Um, but I also need to weigh, like, if I spent two hours on it and then uh I'm not even gonna give it to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Well, and it depends on what death land. Because if it's a death estimate, just don't give it to them and say, hey, we'll just review it on site. I'll bring it with me and we can talk about it when we're doing the on-site estimate. If it's after that and it's it's the site estimate, it's like if they don't have 30 minutes to talk about it and we're doing a renovation for you, I gotta, I got a concern there.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Yeah, yeah. Site estimate is different. Site estimate review is different to me than the desk estimate review. Yeah, but it's still even more time spent. And if they're not willing to talk at that point, then the red flags are are pretty high. Yeah.

Part Two Preview And Coaching Invite

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Um I thought of something also while you're talking about uh where we lose clients during this process, also. I would say the making them feel like they're not a priority or of importance to you because you've got so much going on that it takes you forever to get back to them every single time. Um, so they submit it on my website. It took me 24 hours to respond to them. Hey, it's all that inquiry from yesterday. Hey, I'd love to, I'd love to hear about your kitchen. Uh, you know, tell tell me, tell me more about the project you're looking to do and kind of have the initial call 24 hours later. And then all of a sudden, I say, cool. Well, let me put some stuff together. Let's set up a time that we can review some of this. I'd love to kind of form some numbers around this, do what I call a desk estimate and kind of sit down with you. You got time for that? Well, let me put this together and we'll schedule something. A week later, they haven't heard from you. And a week later, you're like, hey, uh, do you got time on Friday to sit down and go over this? And like, yeah, I've already visited with three people on site at my house. Like, sure, you can show me your numbers on Friday, but okay, yeah. Right. And so being slow to the table every single time, every single round, you are going to lose that client. We always talk about first date is the first contact. And we're trying to get on the the third or fourth date by the time the other guys are on their first or second date. And if I can get ahead in my relationship, they they are less interested in the other guys and forming that relationship, and they're already bought in to me without even seeing my numbers yet. And so, can I get to that the deep relationship to where they're ready to commit and sign a contract with me? Uh, and so the slower you are to that, the the quicker other people are getting that relationship with your client. And that's, I mean, we've talked about that before on the podcast. Hey, I got a client that has got plans and are meeting with three other contractors but wanted to talk to me because their neighbor referred us. I'm gonna hop in the truck and be in their living room that afternoon because they're already talking to three different guys, and I'm their last ditch. Let me just try one more guy. I'm uh I'm on the first date when these guys are on the fourth. I'm gonna fast forward this. What do you want? Let me let me take you out to dinner tonight. Like let's, let's, let's get serious about this as quickly as possible. So I think the I've got 10 estimates that came in. I got 10 inquiries from clients that that uh I need to get back to. Take a minute, call the six that you actually have time for, and the other four send them an email saying, hey, I'm slammed this week. Do you have time to talk next week? Or, you know, what's your what's your timetable on this? But I would rather give six, six clients my full attention than 10 clients 60% of my attention. And it's I'm spread thin. And all 10 of those experience me as I mean, Clark's just got a lot going on, and he's kind of slow to get back to me, but I get it. You know, it's there's a there's a lot of stuff going on. And that sort of taste of, yeah, he's just really busy. I'm sure he's great, is what make them fall off during this part of the process, too. Um next week, we're gonna talk about going on site. We're going, we're going from the desk estimate to on-site, the walk, uh revising the estimate, how do we present that, how do we do that, the presentation, how we prep for the CEA. But again, this is continuing that relationship down the road with them and helping, helping us be on those dates ahead of time to where we are showing them the experience that they're gonna get if they chose choose us uh to work with us, to where they're they're they're paying for the experience and the guarantee of quality that they feel with us versus other guys that aren't building the rapport that we have. All right, that was a long one for the first half of the process, but we will uh next week dive back into part two. If you have any questions, you want to talk to us, if you have a company that is growing or not growing, or just need a second set of eyes on something, set up a call with me. Go to contractorcuts.com. I'd love to have a 30-minute uh zoom. Um, we'll sit down, look at your company, hear about your stuff, what you're doing, what you got going on. Um, if you want to hear about what coaching is, I'd love to tell you about it. Um, it's this isn't some some guru watch these videos. Our our coaching program is one-on-one with James or I or both. Um, really growing your company. So thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you guys next week. Bye.