Contractor Cuts
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Contractor Cuts
How A South African GC Restarted In The U.S. And Cut Years Off The Learning Curve
We sit down with Grant Doubell to unpack how a South African contractor rebuilt in Georgia, blending commercial planning with residential service to cut years off the learning curve. We get honest about “coffee stains,” preconstruction discipline, and the financial habits that keep builders in business.
• origin story from development to GC
• early scrappy jobs and learning by doing
• moving to the US and translating skills
• lingo shifts and trade expectations
• client advocacy over good old boys
• three-bid procurement and backup subs
• commercial-grade preconstruction for homes
• residential care on commercial projects
• COVID shock and the forced reset
• fixing coffee stains in quoting and closeout
• cash flow, retainage, and profit discipline
• acting big before you are big
• horizon thinking and value of coaching
Join us January 11–13 in Nashville for the Chart the Course 2026 Planning Retreat. Sign up now and get three free coaching sessions before the event to finish 2025 strong and hit 2026 with a clear game plan. At the retreat, you’ll tackle systems, hiring, marketing, and leadership alongside ambitious contractors, leaving with a blueprint for growth. Spots are limited—visit prostruct360.com to learn more!
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Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover the good, the bad, and the ugly of growing a successful contracting company. Welcome to Contractor Cuts. My name is Clark Turner. Thank you for joining us again this week. So today I've got a special guest on the podcast with me. His name is Grant Dubel. He is a good friend of mine. We've we've uh been buddies for a little while. And he is also a contractor uh in the same space and thought it'd be great to bring him on. He's got a really cool backstory of how he got into this and his transition uh to the states. He's from South Africa, and you'll probably tell that from a slight accent as as he starts talking. But uh today we're gonna talk about his story, kind of interview him a little bit and get to know uh really what I think is pretty intriguing you know, what's different about the US and how construction works here versus in other countries. Um what did you have to learn? What what changed when you came here? So I'm I'm pretty excited to jump in with you. So welcome to the show, Grant.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks. Thanks for having me. Only a slight accent. Only a slight accent. Yeah. Can you do an American accent? I mean, I can, I'm not going to now.
SPEAKER_00:I can't do a South African accent.
SPEAKER_03:You try.
SPEAKER_00:No. If if you do it, I'll do it we'll do the whole interview trying our our terrible accents. Cool. All right. So, Grant, you born and raised in South Africa. Um, kind of give us the backstory. Tell us uh how you got into construction, what it was like, you know, when, what age, how did you get into this? Was this something your dad was doing? You kind of followed his footsteps, was this something that you know you just got into because you went to school for it? Like what's what's your origin story in getting into the industry?
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So um probably quite typical of a lot of contractors, it is kind of not the main plan. You know, it's not what was going to happen. So I kind of finished high school, went to university, um, at the back of university, landed up joining father's business. Um, and literally, you know, um my dad was developing, doing proper real estate development, and uh I went to him, I'm like, cool, now what? And he said, Well, I've got a space, you can come be a site superintendent, join the guy that's building for us, yeah, and uh kind of just step in, get in the trenches. So literally from uh and like go back a little kind of university was like investment management, ecos, etc. etc.
SPEAKER_00:But um was it a did you go there with a mindset to get into this, or was it like just go to school because that's what I'm gonna do and figure it out from there?
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. So not at all the plan. And uh it's I I won't lie, it has definitely put me in good stead down the way, um, good understanding of of money and what comes with it in the kind of financial aspects of construction. Yeah. But um, I certainly didn't expect to uh go from there to getting into the trenches and digging holes and making sure the concrete was kind of set to the levels it needed to be, etc. You know, so very much uh rudimentary beginning or start from the ground, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Was was your dad was it his company or was he working for a larger company?
SPEAKER_03:It was his company, but he kind of did it on the side. He would, you know, he ran a uh a large property, uh a real estate newspaper. Yeah. And uh it was kind of it sort of made sense for him just to buy land and develop it on the side. And uh so he would get a typical kind of contractor scenario where a contractor comes in and builds, he'd just be the developer.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um and then I got involved with him on that. And then I I worked with him for probably eight years um working in that space before starting my own GC business. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What what tell us about that? What prompted you to start a GC business versus going to work for one of the other GCs in the area?
SPEAKER_03:Um so I I don't think I've ever really worked for someone, is in the sense of like uh what's the terminology at W-2?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh like kind of direct employee. So it's not something I was used to. Um I'd uh I'd worked with him for so long, probably picked up a couple bad habits along the way of like how to do it and how not to do it, yeah. Uh as far as employees go. And um and a friend from high school in interior design actually came to me and was like, Hey, I want to start a thing. Um, and so we, you know, we bounced around the idea. I thought I'd set him up in business, and down the way it turned into me leaving my father's business, joining him. Um my father was actually a partner in that business for a period of time. It's called Ground Up. Um, the South African business is called Ground Up, so is the American one. Um, and uh and yeah, joined um a guy named Tyler. We jumped in, uh got going together, and uh the rest was history. You know, he was in the business for a little while, but um left probably a year or two later, and then it ended up just being me, kind of um separated it out.
SPEAKER_00:Um was this late 20s, early 30s? What when was this?
SPEAKER_03:So this was around 2010. Um I'd been in a number of other businesses from marketing and selling spare parts like trucks and buses, um, to um yeah, I mean all kinds of different things, but uh that was kind of at the same time as the development business with my dad, and then when it became ground up, it became ground up, like that was the that was the main kind of thing. Yeah, and so a little bit of that like stick to the main thing concept, yeah. That's where we got to you.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. What's um you started your own company with with Tyler? Uh you you started going, what was that like? Was it uh did you feel was it successful the first year? Was did it start going well? Was it just kind of shooting from the hip and and we're hunting and eating what we hunt, and that's about it right now? Like what was what was that that experience?
SPEAKER_03:It's funny because it's like go deep quickly, you know, it's like uh those first couple of years are uh those first couple of years are hard, you know, it's like lifestyle business. We're gonna like figure out how we go as we go.
SPEAKER_05:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Um it was I mean it was good, but he was kind of out of the business quicker than we got going and got kind of running. Yeah. Um so the first years, you know, you pick up a pick up a job because a friend's mom needs something done, and you're like, hey, we can do that. Yeah. It's like, can you really?
SPEAKER_05:We're like, uh find someone to do it. We'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_03:It's like can you? And that's very much the South African way. It's like, you know, we'll we'll step into it. I've mentioned some of this, like you'll do residential and commercial, and people are like, How? And you're like, well, you just kind of do whatever someone asks you if you can. Yeah. And if it's kind of within your wheelhouse, you'll figure it out, you know, you'll get it done. So started off with um, you know, small add-ons to houses, like additions, and then small remodels, and then it just kind of grew legs as it went. Um, as I say, when Tyler left the business, it was a matter of like, hey man, I want out, and we're like, okay, let's look at the numbers. We looked at the numbers together, we're like, cool, let's shake hands, we'll just call it what it is. Yeah. Kind of separated from there, and uh, and the rest was history, you know.
SPEAKER_00:So what's um I know that what you came over to Georgia.
SPEAKER_03:End of 22. 22.
SPEAKER_00:So about about three to four years ago. Yeah, three. Um, I'm good at math. So uh when that happened, that transition, I know that you still have business in South Africa.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:What um kind of bring us in on that transition entering into the US market and kind of getting your feet wet? What was what was shocking to you? What was kind of the like, whoa, this is different, or hey, this is exactly the same, it runs the same. Kind of give us the the the play-by-play on that. When when you're coming over here, coming for the first time, second time after visiting, when you're moving your whole family here and kids and all that stuff. What was shocking to the system? What was kind of, oh, this feels like feels like home?
SPEAKER_03:Um, so I think I was quite well prepared for that exact thing because everyone that heard that I was going to come and start working here was like, well, how how do you do it? It's feet and inches, it's centimeters and millimeters. Like they build it differently. We build brick and mortar, and in Georgia, a lot of it is kind of stick frame, you know, as an example. But um, in the in the kind of project management processes of what come down to come down to what construction is, you know, the ceiling is the ceiling and the wall is the wall. So when you're kind of planning and scheduling, that's that's not that difficult to kind of get your head around. But um, I think I mentioned this the other day. The first job I ever did over here, the guys that arrived to start framing literally didn't know what they were doing with regard to setting outs and all the rest. And I was like, well, here we go. This is the crash course, you know. So um, you know, I was surprised at how quickly I could pick that up, and that's not a me thing, I think just anyone. Yeah, you just pick it up quickly. You know, math is math, and you know, you'll get there. Um, the terminology is interesting. It's like uh, you know, everyone talks about sheet rock as if sheetrock is a thing as opposed to a brand, you know. Yeah, am I correct? Yeah, sheetrock's the brand, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like Kleenex is uh is a tissue, exactly. Or sheetrock is drywall, but everyone calls it sheetrock.
SPEAKER_03:Correct. And so, like in South Africa, everyone talks about rhinolite, which is like a skimming compound. No one talks about skimming compound, it's rhinolite. And so the same thing here. There's some there's some kind of nuance or some some lingo that's in the trade. Yeah, and that'll be state by state, and that'll be company by company. But you know, those are the things that someone says something and you stop and you're like, you look for a moment, you're like, What? Yeah, it's a little bit like my accent, you know. The first sentence, people think I'm speaking a different language altogether, and then like, oh, it's actually English, you know. Yeah, um, and then it's helpful, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So coming over, you know, getting your first job, meeting those guys, start starting to get starting to something brand new here. Sure. Were there any other hurdles that you had to jump over? Paperwork, um, that that sort of thing, um, red tape from the government, and anything that was difficult for you, or was it kind of very similar and you just kind of googled it and figured it out and you're good to go?
SPEAKER_03:So fortunately, my wife's a citizen, so life is super easy in that regard. You know, so um there was a period of time where I was running, um, was running uh well, I had a business in South Africa running. I was living here, and um, you know, it was like checking in on your business that you can't go and visit and you can't go and do anything. It's 3 a.m. or time. Yeah, so six-hour time difference, um, you know, all remote, you know, it's it's an interesting kind of time. So um anyway, that was like uh probably a nine to twelve month period, and then um I opened the same version of the business, it's very creative. I literally took the same logo, the same brand, and replicated it, yeah. Yeah, took out all the U's because you know, in America there's no use.
SPEAKER_00:You guys had u's everywhere, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Colour. So we just uh color. Literally, I can't say color to Suri without it coming up with some random words. But um but yeah, so copy paste a business over here. I started, um, kind of got going. You know, the stuff that you you have to figure out as you go, it's all different except it's all the same. Yeah. You kind of uh do your thing. Um, you have the same challenges. It's like, where do you go find your customer? Like figure that out. A lot of it is referral-based, figure that out.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of it is like Well, and you don't have the connections here that you did in South Africa. So the referral base is kind of like starting from the beginning, like trying to find those referrals. And how do you how do you get into the into the weeds with people in the area to refer stuff to you?
SPEAKER_03:Sure. And like, you know, there's a there's a common phrase, it's like your your network is your net worth. And um I think in construction that is like tremendously true.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so I was a guy doing a thing in Johannesburg, South Africa, where there was almost I don't want to say there's nothing I couldn't solve, but it was like if we ran into an issue and doing business there is different, like the city's different, the council's different, like it's just a a different animal altogether. Yeah. If someone needed something done and they phoned me, I could probably get them close to an answer if I couldn't do it myself. You know? Then you get here and it's like, oh, that's what we've got to do. And then you stop and think about it. Like you forget about the the 20 years of experience that you have in an industry because it just becomes second nature.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And um, and so you get you and you have that question thrown at you. It's like, oh, what do you think about this? You're like, hmm, this is not the right answer because it's going to come across differently.
SPEAKER_00:Do you do you almost second like I would feel second guessing everything because it's like, what do I not know? Like what what I know I don't know something. Like, what am I what should I look up to to figure out the answer?
SPEAKER_03:Did was that any of the things that you Yeah, so so it's funny when you're preparing to do a big thing, like initially it was a sabbatical, and then it was like we like it here. And then we're like, how do we stay? Like what what does that look like? So um in the planning to get to the US, you know, you run through that quadrant and you finally get to the one that is the unknown unknown. And the same applied in work, you know. So I'd start working over here and someone asks you a question, it's like completely left field, and you're like not sure how to answer it at first. And then I won't lie, AI came at a perfect time. It's pretty easy to solve almost any problem. You know, it's like hop online and figure out what you need to and like terminology. Yep. As soon as you realize that it's the same thing, that that boundary is gone. Yeah, you know, you then probably come with a um a unique perspective because then all of a sudden you're coming from that different place of South Africa is like a scarce mindset or like scarcity mindset, it's like a huge thing there compared to this abundance thing here, um, which is amazing, I must say. The people that have helped me set up have been like extremely open to to help. Um, but the unique thing and the value there is you know, when someone says, Hey, what are we gonna do here? I'm thinking a completely different way. Like I come with this uh probably incorrect but different thought process. And if people take the time to be part of that, or if I can get to where they are quickly, we can come up with a different kind of solution to what a problem is.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have an example of that?
SPEAKER_03:Um we might have to loop back here, but um, you know, if uh so a couple of things come to mind, but one is like just the procurement process. You know, I I would 100% get three quotes, uh well, maybe 95% get three quotes on everything I do. Um, whereas a lot of guys here have like got their guys, they've got their teams, they've got their people. And it's not to say that your guys don't get the work, yeah, of course not, but you do want to have a kind of a backup plan, you know. You want to have a team of people you can call on so that you've got different kinds of levels of trade and different levels of things. Um, you know, when you're running a project, you're not often going to have A plus players on every kind of trade.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um and that's not to say you want to have a C grade player, but at the same time, you can have a B if you've got all A pluses. Yeah. And you know, you want to have that kind of backup. So um, you know, it's probably unique, you know, none of it is a matter of trying to like reinvent the wheel of how you do it, but I just I look at it from a cost perspective that you know often it's in the favor of the client.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, one one thing and uh and question about it of is this kind of standard across South Africa or is this how you ran things? But you you know, from our conversations, uh talking business, you are way more of like a client rep, right? You are you set yourself up as a client advocate to where you're their representative, which is the way ProStruct is set up. That's that's the whole coaching model of like if I can get them on my side, coach the, you know, be their advocate, protect their money, protect their investment, then I got a long-term relationship with them, which is how you've you've up you operate. Sure. But most GCs in the US operate the opposite. It's they're boys, they're the good old boys. I got my cabinet guy, I got my my trim guy, and that's who I use, and it's me and my guys versus the client. Where we're trying to get money out of the client, me and my guys, where we're trying to, you know, my the whole coaching that we do is I'm your advocate. It's me and the client against the cruise where I'm trying to protect you, I'm trying to make sure that everything's done well, which is how you you set your your company up. Is that standard kind of in South Africa with with that, or is it kind of the same as the US down there where there's most of the guys are them and their company uh with their guys versus having three bids and having kind of more of the client rep mindset?
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So there's a bunch in there. Um it depends what work I'm doing. Yeah. So I consult to some companies over here, as as you'll know. Um, and when I'm consulting, you know, if I consult as an owner's representative, I'm kind of, you know, I'm on the owner's team, yeah. And I'm and I'm bringing everything I know about construction to make sure that a contractor is just doing what they said they would do. Yeah. You know, I um the value there is that I'm able to look at what they're doing with a different perspective. I'm like, I've worn your hat before. So when this is unfair on you, I can protect you. But at the same time, don't do it dirty on the client because I'm here to protect their interests, you know? And so that probably just keeps things transparent and honest. Um, as far as how I set myself up in a GC perspective, I um this is like a uh it's almost like a coined phrase within Ground of South Africa. It's like we partner with the client, we partner with the supply. And we literally sit in like core values are uh are literally P-A-R-T-N-E R. It's like uh a little bit embarrassing that that's what it came down to. It's like P for professional, you know, it's like it's where we go. Um, you know, in there is transparency, etc. So, you know, we sit in this space where it's like this client's trying to achieve something. How do we partner with them to help them get to where they're trying to go? And in that is quality, time, money, you know, like there's all those usual things. But then on the other side of it, you know, we're looking at suppliers, we're building a team in advance. We're saying, you know, there's three quotes coming in, but early on you know who it is, and we'll work with these guys. A lot of those subs know each other. I'd have like a Christmas dinner at the end of the year, and I have my suppliers come and have dinner together because I want plumber A to know plumber B, and he's not taking food off his table, he's making sure that he can cover the base so that I'm not losing work when it's necessary because he wasn't available, you know. So you can move quicker, you can do all those things. But again, talking to the kind of residential and commercial aspect, you know, I've always said, and it's funny because here I've got to be so careful what I if I don't have time like this on a podcast to explain myself, I've got to be careful how it lands. Because if I say I do commercial and residential, people are like, Well, which one are you good at? You know? Yeah. But um, there's no doubt that a residential mindset, mindset, and kind of consideration of a client adds value in commercial, where commercial is just like bang, bang, bang, get it done. But then in a residential environment, when you can come with a commercial mindset and you're like, I'm actually worrying about dollars and cents, I'm like looking at what this thing costs, not saying take away from the sub, like you want a guy to be able to fix a problem because he can afford to, because he made enough money in the job. Yeah. And so fair and reasonable. But you do still need to have process or process, should I say, that is able to take you from residential to commercial and and back, you know? So um, we will specialize more as time goes on, but where we sit at the moment is that like happy hybrid between the two. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I know some of the commercial stuff you've done is more kind of residential style, where it's it's more uh hands-on designer, you know, or it's like design build-out, like design build turn. Tenant improvements, design build-out type stuff with that that you which is more homeowner-centric, more residential style in terms of selections and picking this out and caring about colors.
SPEAKER_03:And that's probably close to how we got there, you know. It's like people were looking along the design line. Yeah. Um, and it's funny, it's like I get to call international design, you know. But uh, is that what they're like in South Africa? Yeah. Um, but it's like people wanted to bring their homes into their office space. Yeah. And so we just naturally grew into that space because we knew how to do it well, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and the beauty of it too is the reverse is like commercial is 90% pre-construction work. Like it's it's uh all planning. That's all commercial is which that's where most residential guys miss it is they say, I got a signature, get the get the crew, let's get on site, and we'll figure it out as we go. And that's where you lose your money, you lose your time, you lose everything messes up when you don't plan. And so that's that's you know, the way you run is very similar to the way I coach in terms of like we need to do the residential front end like commercial and the commercial back end like residential. I want my commercial to be handheld where it's it's very service-oriented client, even if I'm building a warehouse, like I want it still ran the way to where I can I can satisfy and appease the customer on the commercial side and where they're impressed with the project, not cool, it got done on to the next. And then on the residential, I want to have more commercial front end where I want I want it planned. I want my pre-construction phase to be where I spend 90% of my time. So when hammers start swinging, it's actually it's knocking down, right? And it's we know exactly what we're doing, no decisions, no fire drills with the customer on week seven about, hey, we gotta do this, and what about this? And have you picked out your paint colors? And have you done like all of that stuff is where we get it wrong and the residential side is not planning for it. So I think that's that's that was something that I noticed when we were talking about how you run your company. It's like it's very um it's a good balance of the residential commercial in terms of kind of writing that sweet spot between the two.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And linked to that as you're saying it, it's like you know, I've thought about this before, I haven't thought about it for long. You know, the client, residential or not, comes in wanting it to be commercially minded.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, whether they want to be in for Christmas or they want to just get into their house, there's like something in their mind that links back to time and a schedule, schedule, schedule. Um you've then got um, you know, you've got the money aspect, they are a little bit more relaxed on how much they're going to spend, but they want to be in charge of the extra spend, the part that you're in charge of, and like that's something that I'll take deep pride in. You know, it's like the the the aspects that I can control budget-wise. Yeah, you know, we used to have like a 1% overrun over like a five-year period over like 50 projects or whatever it was on things we control, like brick, paint, you know, like the the things that you had no say in as a client. Um but then when it comes to provisional sums and all of the things that they get a say in, they want to be able to say, I like that force it, but I want this one. I don't get to say no to that. I say, sure, of course you can have it, unless it's gonna affect the schedule or the quality or the, you know. So if they're aware of the budget increase, that's fine, but they still commercially want you to be thinking about money.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, whereas a lot of guys in residential, I find, get into that space of like, well, it's residential, you know, it's chilled, it's gonna be fine. Like no one's really too concerned about it, except that the client's uh specific interest is all the commercials, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And that's how they get pissed off at the end and never never use you again and never recommend you because you didn't run it that way. Sure. Yeah. So going back to your story, uh landing here, getting started, going from a sabbatical to living here and and starting the company. What was kind of the pros and cons of that? I mean, you it's almost a full reset. Like you're starting a new company even though you already built a company. Sure. What what was tell me that experience?
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So the the pros and cons are like 10 years into business. Um, and like this is not specifically pros and cons, but it's a fact, you know, 10 years into business. Um, I'm running this thing on my own by then. Um things are looking good. We teed up nicely. It's 2019. I've got like a got a contract for 250 clinics, small, but like 250 clinics, they're about to roll out. Um, and COVID happens, obviously. And um, I sit in this space where I've received some money up front. You know, I've taken deposits from clients, some of them wanted to pay up front, and you know, whatever. I've got clients' money in their account. I've got terms set up with my suppliers, and South Africa goes into a lockdown. The lockdown is that um, and for for many good and bad reasons, you know, like different circumstances, people live in different ways there. Um, construction was not an essential service. Yeah. And so I try to pivot or be agile, you know, all those all the terms we knew were right.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh try to become like a maintenance business that could run on my app, you know, like used a boardroom booking system as a quick app fix. Yeah. I think I made like 585 Rand to give you context, it's like one cent, I don't know, five cents, fifteen cents. Um, in in three months. You know, I literally couldn't give a design job away. I was trying to give free design away because I knew that if we came back with things designed, we'd be able to get into construction. And uh so for three months we didn't build anything, um, had no earning, um, couldn't give a job away.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so Well, and at the beginning of COVID, it was like, oh, we're just two weeks away. We're we're a week uh one more week of everyone staying inside and then we'll be good.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, man, people spoke about 18 months and I was like, You're all lunatics. Yeah, there's no way.
SPEAKER_00:There's no way. They won't do that. The government won't do it. And so yeah, we were I mean, the what you just said is so funny. It's like, well, let's just get the designs going because we're uh next month we'll we'll hit go on the construction and we'll be good to go.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And on the client side, they're like, I can design it for free and waste my time or be with my kids because I don't know when I'm gonna come back. I don't think so. Anyway, we go through that process. Um, I run out of supplier terms because I pay as many people as I can possibly pay. Um, our working capital, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, that wasn't what I thought it was. Our cash flow is just no longer the thing that it resembled, you know. Um, and so anyway, reset need to start again. And one of the things, you know, you've probably heard me say this to you sometimes. It's like we had a hundred reasons between the US and South Africa, and there were like 51 in favor of the US by the time we decided. It's not like, you know, it wasn't this grass greener story. Yeah, one of the reasons was we had to reset. And if I'm going to start again, you know, in adverted commerce, start again 20 years down the line, do I do it in Rand or dollar? And I was like, this makes a bunch of sense. So came over here, got to restart, um, whether I like it or not. Um, you know, uh I'll never actually forget. I remember talking to a business coach of mine, um, an exceptional guy, um, really, really good, influence on my life, really valuable, valuable resource. Um, he says, you know, you're not starting again, you're taking a 20-year head start and then starting. He's like, think about 20 years ago when you started, you really knew nothing. Yeah. The fast track will be easier. Yeah. And he was mostly right. But um, you know, you bring all the lessons with you as you go, and then you get to leave the ones behind and you get to choose again, you know. So that was a worthwhile process, you know, go and cut through it all, bring the secret source, you know, like what are the things that were worth bringing? Um, you know, what are the coffee stains that your business had? Like, what are the things that you just, you know, you got known for that you're not good at, that people forgave you for because they liked you. Yeah. You know, it's like people would phone my phone because it was grant, not necessarily because it was ground up and you know, remove the coffee stain out of your business, the thing that upsets people.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like I got to think about those things. I got to process all of that and run through the if I reset, what do I leave behind? Like, what are the mistakes that I didn't even know that I knew or had learned?
SPEAKER_00:Well, do you what did you find? What what what were those? What were your coffee stains? What were the things that that you feel like you were able to reset, kind of white uh white erasboard, get it, get it out of here, get rid of that the way I operated, the way I did? What were there any like give us some of the details of those lessons?
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So um so the coffee stain concept is you know, I'm sitting in a in a learning, I used to be a member of a thing called Entrepreneurs Organization, and one of the ladies that was in that, one of the members that was in it was in it with us was a uh coach. Yeah and um she's doing this learning day and she's talking about coffee stains in your business. And at first I'm like, hmm, this is an interesting concept. And then it's like, cool, so what are your coffee stains? Yeah. And I was like, wow, now we're getting honest. Like, uh, what's the thing about me and my business that I don't like? And I'm like, we are definitely slow to quote, you know. Someone's like, hey, can you come put this proposal together? I'm like, of course. I'm there within like 30 minutes. I chat to you. We're like, this is on. I'm like on fire for it. I'm excited for it. Um, ADHD is probably kicking in at some point. I'm like, this is all dopamine, you know? And then you get back into the rhythm of the things you've got to get done. And the next thing it's like a week later, they're like, hey, what's happening with the quotes? And you're like, oh, I'm nearly there.
SPEAKER_05:Like, oh no.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you know, it hasn't left the mind, but you're like, it's there. Like after two weeks, you're like, I can't believe another week's gone. But it's just, you know, how you prioritize that. And where I got it wrong is that, you know, no client of mine now wants to hear this, but I'll say it anyway. Like, I always took the approach of the person paying me today gets all my attention, except that that never protected my business for the future because I was so stuck in the project I was in because I felt I owed it to that client. And it's not that you don't owe it to that client or that I don't owe it to that client, it's that there's a definite hybrid version somewhere in between where you can block out time and you can go focus on the thing. So to answer the question, the coffee stain was slow to quote. Um, another one was um slow to get a final count out. You know, the the process of wrapping that all up at the end was always so hard to do. And I wrote off tons of money over the years in that exact thing. You know, by the time you come to a client and you're like, hey man, you owe us this money, and they're looking at you, they're like, Who are you again? You know, like that's too long, you know. So getting yourself billed to the point that uh, you know, you're sitting at punch uh or call the snag um in in South Africa and many other places, like probably everywhere except the US. Calls it the snag, the punch? Snag meeting, you know, the punch meeting, snag list. Uh so there's one, yeah, you know, first time uh someone spoke about the punch list. I was like, where are we going? Uh someone's hitting me, what's a punch? Yeah, exactly. So um, and every now and then like I'll drop the snag thing and I see someone look at me and I immediately change to punch and I don't admit that I got anything wrong, you know. But um, if you're leaving more than your retainage out there, that's your fault. And it was my fault, you know. And I um I had to own a lot of that. Yeah. If you start looking at it, you're like, wow, you know, I'm so hard done by these people, didn't pay. And then I'm like, they didn't pay, and that's true, and it's not okay. But how much of this can I get to take ownership of? So there's a lot of that kind of thing where you stop and look at it again. Um, you know, the things you take with you, you realize quickly that as a contractor, like number one on the list of things you should have to learn before you can be a GC is financial management. Like to not know where your numbers are, to not know how much money you have, to not know what your your cash flow conversion cycle looks like. Like to think that this client's money because it's deposited in your bank is your money, is just you know, and no one's trying to do that. Yeah, but if you don't have a great base and understanding of it, it's just so easy to fall into that trap.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's a the problem, and I mean what makes construction different than almost any other other thing is that the way you start the company is not the way you can grow a company, right? You always fall back. Like when I'm running a job by myself when I was starting my company, like I've I go out and do the work, I find a job, I get money, and I'm on that job. So all of those processes, all the financial management, all that's in my head, because I'm on one job and it's easy to know it. And okay, all the money in this account, I gotta spend this, and I gotta spend this. So I got two grand left in it that I can take out myself. Great, done. You can't scale that way though. And the problem is guys do it that way. They start working that way, and it makes sense for them that way, and that's just the foundation that they built. And then you start adding more jobs and more jobs and more jobs. You they start hiring project managers, which are really glorified assistants. And those guys are now supposed to run it, but they don't have the same mechanics in their brain that you do. And so your assistant who is now running projects for you isn't looking at the dollars that you're looking at. They're just saying, money in, money out, good, I'm good to go. And those companies crash because there's no financial management, there's no knowledge, there's no controls as the owner to run, but you don't realize that until you're too late.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:And so that's that's that's one of my, you know, I love the coffee stain concept. I'm stealing that from you, FYI, but uh you'll we'll probably talk about it on the retreat, and you're gonna be on the retreat too. So that's perfect. Uh, I might have you lead that session when we talk about that. But that being said, like I think that's part of it too of all of those coffee stains that people have that that that their companies are known for, that's kind of left behind when they're done. No one purposefully sets that up. Like that's not a choice. That's not a, hey, you know what? I'm just not gonna get back to people on estimates. No, you just don't have a good process in the front end. Absolutely. And so figuring out those, and I think that's the beauty of our coaching, is let us show you how coffee stains are made and let's avoid those from the foundation. So let's build on a really well-laid foundation as opposed to let's build a big, now let's go back, tear out your foundation, and rebuild the foundation underneath the house that you've built.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:You can't, right? And so that I love that that uh that concept, the the coffee sane where you can kind of look back at it because it's like that's that's that's where you get stuck, where you get known for, and what ends up ending your company or really preventing your growth. Because it's like, I like Grant, Grant's a good dude. I'm always gonna have Grant do my my my renovations that I need. I'm not gonna tell my neighbors about Grant because I don't want them to have to deal with what I've dealt with, but I'm fine with dealing with it. Yeah. Right. I think the the one of the worst things you can be in construction is a good company, not a great company. Because the uh a good construction company is a company that is good at giving you the product. I'm a my kitchens are the most beautiful kitchens. You're not gonna get another person put a kitchen in better. Uh it was hard to get numbers from me, it was hard to communicate. You never knew when my guys are gonna be there. All of throughout the process, you didn't know what was going on as my customer. No matter how good my kitchen is, I'm it's a good, it's a great kitchen, but you're not gonna refer me to anybody. I got no word of mouth coming because you're like, yeah, I'll deal with him, but I'm not gonna have my mom deal with him. I'm not gonna have my neighbor deal with him. And so I think being a really good company like that, but with no processes in place is kind of the purgatory that companies get into where it's like, I've hit a ceiling, I can't grow, I can't do anything else with my company because I'm just I don't understand why, but I'm working harder, making less than I did last year. And I'm working more and I'm hunting this, and I can't seem to get clients, and I can't, and it's like, well, that's because we've we've got the stain, right? We've got the this this coffee stain on your company and the foundation's built wrong. Yeah, and so we got to tear everything down to redo that foundation and build it up again. And do you have the heart and the gut to go through that, right? And I think that's the hard part with companies. A bad company goes out of business pretty quickly. A good company stays in business for 20 years and doesn't grow. And that's that's what I'm trying to avoid with when I'm coaching guys, is like, I want you to be a great company. I want you to be a company that grows strategically. We know where your dollars are. And one of one of the big things with that is like most guys in our industry, when I get there, I'll start doing that. I'll start my QuickBooks when I get to this level, when I start going beyond two jobs at a time. The problem is you're never gonna get there until you build a foundation to get there on. Sure. And it's like you you you have to act like a big company before you become a big company. 100%. You can't just start as a big, good comp great company. It's like, no, you gotta act like that before you are, have your processes in place. So when you start going, just gas on the fire and it's growing.
SPEAKER_03:That concept of having a, you know, doing big business and small business has that really, really helped. And like going back a little bit to what I could bring with me, you know, the South African way is um at the biggest, my company had 60 people in it. Yeah. Um, a lot of that is site staff and guys that are kind of on the ground doing the doing the labor. Sure. But because the economy of what that is is that you can afford more people, um, but you then have to go and hunt for work to make sure there's somewhere for those guys to go. Yeah. But the background of it is that you just have different things to focus on. And so there's always someone new coming in, there's always change, um, and having a playbook that you can get back to goes a long way. Yeah. But um the the the piece you're saying there about like big business and small business, you know, I ran a bigger business, and so I bring those lessons with me when I start now. Yeah, I've always believed it. Um, but I'll also say, you know, you can go the you can go the route of building this big business and you can also still get it wrong. And linked to that is, you know, I thought I was gonna scale this business and turn into this most scalable thing, but I forgot to take profit out along the way. Um, and that's such an easy trap to fall into as well. I'm reinvesting.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just gonna reinvest.
SPEAKER_03:You typically you put everything back in, it's probably into a bit of dirt, it's into some real estate, it's those sorts of things. But the truth is that those those markets change as well, and so you know, be cautioned as to where you put them. But um, that concept of I'm gonna take every cent the business makes, every dollar goes back into the business, you know, you get to the end of it. If things do turn, if things do go wrong, if there's another COVID event and you stop and look, you're like, oh wow, you know, everything was in there and then it got decided for me, you know. So being able to take that project money out in projects as you go along the way is something that I would, you know, I'll never make that mistake again. Yeah. And um, anyone that ever asks me, I'll go out of my way to try and help them with that. And that's not to say don't scale, and it's not to say don't um prepare for the future. It's just like don't grow faster than you have to.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Don't like get to when you need QuickBooks and then decide you do. Have that in place and running because that's low cost to be prepared and running well. Yeah. But you don't need 30 staff to open your doors.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, don't go hire an office manager and a product day one. Like that. Yeah. It's kind of the the thought of like, I'm trying to get to the horizon. And if I have no plan and I've never been to the horizon before, like most guys starting companies, they're just wandering through the woods and you're going left and going right and kind of going opportunistic, right? Uh I got this, and so now I'm gonna try a commercial job and now I'm gonna do investment properties. I might flip one myself and I'm gonna do. And it's like they're wandering through the woods with no game plan and path. And I think that's the one, you know, with you restarting in in the US, you've been to the horizon in South Africa. And so you kind of understand, oh, this is a better way to walk that path. I think that's what coaching does for guys, too, is like on on my side, I'm like, listen, I've gotten to the horizon and and I've I've made every wrong turn on the way there. Let me show you kind of the path and let's walk through that. Let me be a guide on that path. I'm not gonna, I'm not walking it for you, but I'll guide you down it. And so I think that's that's kind of the the big like if we build it with a goal of what that horizon feels like to where the structure now works when we duplicate to that size, then it's a very smooth and easy path. Uh and it's not a wondering and making the wrong decision. You're gonna find the horizon. We we all have, and we've all made the hard decisions to get there. Not all, but like like with what you did and what I've done, like I I took the worst path. I I took a I I mean, I've got uh I've got loans that I took out over 10 years ago that I'm almost done paying back. Right? Stuff like that to where it's like uh you know, the the oh, if we just have more money, let's get it, let's go, let's let's run and let's borrow half a million and and run after this, and we can hire these people and do and it's like what are you doing? Like that, like I I just wish I could shake Clark of 2010, 20 and 2008.
SPEAKER_03:Well, the interesting thing is that the horizon, and I'm sure you did this intentionally, it's a thing in the distance, it's not like an exact place. Yep, right. And so no matter what the horizon is, we each have one. Yeah. So even the guy that failed, he's got a horizon that he got to. And if he tells that story back, and this is where coaching is just so valuable, it's like I've hit the horizon of whatever mine was. Now I get to tell you the story of how to get there fast. And like I reflect on this as you speak. You know, it took me 20 years to get to a point that we landed up in America. Yeah, um, took me 20 years to get to a point of whatever my horizon was, and now I've set up again in re realistically, it's it'll be two years at the end of this year that this company has been in existence, and we will be 80% of the way to where we were. Um with the 20 years. Yeah, exactly. So two in two and twenty kind of thing to do a similar kind of uh kind of uh distance in in how to set up well, you know.
SPEAKER_00:So that's it's like you're you're kind of selling my coaching stuff, but my my my what I always say to guys, like, I'm not a guru, like I'm I'm not, I don't know more than you. You can figure this out in the next eight to twelve years and get there. Like, let's just expedite that down to 18 months and let me help you kind of sure navigate that path. Like, let's let's get that foundation set up and let's get you there so a you don't have to have those six-figure bad decision mistakes that I that I had to make. But but B, like, let's expedite it and then you're successful in 18 months, not eight years from now. And that's let's avoid the the pitfalls and the traps that you fall into that you don't realize where the road looks like I should go left, but in reality, let me tell you the reasons we got to go right because of this, this, and this, it's smarter to go right on this decision. So yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03:Also, I mean you you know, coaching, you're probably more directional. You're gonna tell people this is how I've seen it, but at the same time, it's an experience share. You know, it's like this is this is what I did and how I did it. And the person who's on the other side's either gonna do it or not. Yeah, they're gonna listen to you and they're gonna think about which way they want to go. Yep. Um, I just know what didn't work for me, or at least I know what worked for me for a while. Yep. And sometimes I was too slow to realize that it had changed.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and that in itself is a whole story. It's like, you know, it's changing in front of you. You are so used to a certain way, um, instead of stopping and checking in every now and then, you know, like once a quarter, stop and pay attention to the thing that changed in your business. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Zoom out a 30,000-foot view and look at it actually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And like, am I still the right guy to run this business? You know, am I still the perfect person to be the CEO, the president? Yeah. If you started it, the chances are it's probably no. If it's a business. Um, but it doesn't mean it's always the case and doesn't mean you'll do a terrible job. It just means like, you know, I love starting businesses personally, like me as Grant. Like, I love starting businesses. Do I love running them indefinitely the same way every day for the rest of my life? I'm like, nah, not really, not so much. And that's where projects are are joyful. You know, project starts, it ends, you get to see the thing you built. It's like that feels good, it's amazing, it's great. You're sharing that with the customer. Um, and then you get to go do it all over again, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think that's great. Well, well, I appreciate you coming on, man. This has been great. I mean uh if if you are coming on the retreat, Grant should be on the retreat. It looks like I think he's coming on it with us. So you can meet him there. Um, but yeah, it's it's been um it's been fun. Glad to have you. We'll probably have you back at some point to talk about some more specific topics.
SPEAKER_03:Now that people know what my accent sounds like and what I'm actually saying.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, watch this be a fake accent. You show up. People talk to you, it's not real, but he's from New Jersey, actually. So South Georgia. Yeah. Cool, man. Well, good to meet you. Meet you. Good to talk with you. Thanks for being on the podcast, and uh, we'll see you guys next week. Cool. Thank you.
