Contractor Cuts
Join the ProStruct360 team on the Contractor Cuts podcast as we delve into the ins and outs of building and sustaining a thriving contracting business. Gain valuable insights and actionable tips from our experts who have successfully grown their own contracting company from the ground up.
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Contractor Cuts
The Art of Saying No in Contracting
Contractors often accept every job that comes their way, leading to poor customer experiences and damaged reputations. We explore strategies for wisely selecting projects and communicating effectively with clients to protect your business.
• Understand the "Fruit Bowl Metaphor" – taking on too many jobs without capacity to service them leads to spoilage
• Frame declinations around customer benefit rather than your convenience
• Two types of "no" in contracting: jobs outside your expertise and capacity limitations
• Proper messaging: "I'd rather say no and lose money than say yes and give you a bad experience"
• Use desk estimates for initial client screening to save time and set expectations
• Schedule two time blocks for every estimate: site visit and writing/presenting the proposal
• Proactive communication preserves client goodwill even when you can't take a job immediately
If you want help implementing these strategies in your business, visit prostruct360.com. The contact page has a calendar link to schedule a free 30-minute conversation about your company.
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Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover the good, the bad and the ugly of growing a successful contracting company.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Contractor Cuts. My name is Clark Turner, I'm James James. Welcome, james. What did you want me to say? I don't know. I thought you were going to do something funny, but I thought about it. Yeah, that's okay. Next, next time, we'll do another podcast, all right?
Speaker 2:Well, today we're talking about how to say no to customers and fruit and fruit customers and fruit those are really all we're talking about today. So, really, the this podcast came about when we're talking through, like when I look at issues of new contractors coming in, it's they say yes to every job. Right, it's, the more I can collect, the more I can say yes to, the more I'm doing good. Right, the goal is get my phone to ring, get customers to say yes, that's my only job here. Now. We've got to get the work done, and that's going to happen in the background, and so what we want to coach you on is how to say no to those jobs.
Speaker 2:And there's really two different no's that we'll cover, right. No, I don't want to work with that person or do that job. And no, I don't have time or capacity right now. And so those are two different answers and two different directions. We'll go, but really, you know, we brought up a really good kind of metaphor a few months ago, talking about a fruit bowl. Why don't you, why don't you rehash that, that metaphor again, so we can kind of use it throughout this?
Speaker 1:Sure, clark, thanks. Everything has a shelf life. We hope it does, because that means it's real. And so fruit famously goes bad. That's true, and it gets. You know, apples get mealy brown spots, bananas similar Do avocados, avocados Avocados is the one that has the smallest window of opportunity from being a great meal to icky yuck.
Speaker 1:What contractors tend to do, do, I swear, is on airplane mode, you're good, uh. So what contractors tend to do is is pick all of the fruit, all the fruit available, yes, absolutely okay, okay, good, yes, I'll take that too. And they put it all in their bowl and then they look at it and they say I like this one, I'm going to take this orange because it looks the best and I'm going to eat that. Oh, now I'm going to take this one and we'll do that one. Meanwhile, the rest of the fruit in the bowl is starting to get a little funky. It's starting to get a little funky, starting to get a little mushy, and all that fruit is going bad. And in this case we can just throw that fruit out or put it in the compost. But when you say it's your clients, you're putting a bad name out there, you're hurting your reputation.
Speaker 2:And you're leaving a lot on the table. Yeah, it's a. So guys that say yes to everything and gather all of that low hanging fruit that's easy to grab. So I'm just going to get it all and put it on my basket and figure out how to get all these estimates out. The door.
Speaker 1:It's a bowl, not a basket, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 2:How do I get to all these? How do I eat all of this fruit? I'll figure that out later. Right, and so you know I've coached guys that you know they've got a couple months worth of work, they're doing great. And I sit down on a coaching call with them and it's like, well, I've got 20 estimates that I haven't gotten back to yet, but like things are good and I'm like that's not good, that's not good, that's short-term good, that's long-term bad, because those are 20 people, 20 homeowners and 20 different properties that are having a really bad experience with you because you haven't come back. Well, I'm gonna, I'm going to get back to him. Well, how are you going to get back to him? Well, I know one of them. I'm going to go out to the house on Monday next week and then the other ones I got to get back to him and figure out that's that you're with if you're not going to the first one till next week, I mean, what, three months before you get to that 20th? Like what? What are you? What?
Speaker 1:I think the the first objection is well, I don't owe them anything. Yes, and that's true. Yeah, you don't owe them anything. You haven't. There's no been no exchange. You may have not even promised them anything, but that doesn't change the fact that their perception of you is going to be colored by their only interaction with you, which is we talked about it and I haven't heard from them. So, even if they, even if you do follow back up with them after a couple of weeks, you're already fighting back from oh, just like everybody else. Yeah, I'm waiting for a couple other guys that still haven't gotten back to me either. So you're now in this lump group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Then it's whoever's lowest price is going to win, or the one guy that does follow up and give them good customer service is going to beat you, yeah, yeah. So I think one of the big things with that mindset is such a short term mindset is like okay, I've got a bunch of these, I'm gonna figure out which one I can make the most money on and just kind of call those people back and if they don't answer I'll call the next row, and if they don't answer Then I'll call the last set of people.
Speaker 1:Or, or even worse, they take the fruit that they have the least experience with, like I've never had a pineapple and then you got to figure out how to eat this thing.
Speaker 2:But they they said they want a $200,000 addition, so I'm going to figure out how to do additions. That's a lot of money.
Speaker 1:You might be allergic to pineapple. Yes, it might close up your throat.
Speaker 2:You will choke this first time eating pineapple. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I ate the top part. It was terrible.
Speaker 2:But that's what guys do. Some guys don't have that issue because they aren't good at marketing or they don't have a big enough circle where they're getting those leads coming in. But it's one of those problems that are really I don't have it because when I started my company I didn't have a lot of work and when your phone won't stop ringing, you're like, okay, great, I got to collect all this fruit. Right, I've got to collect all. I got. To say yes to everything because for the last year of trying to get this going, I've worked hard to get my phone to ring and now it's ringing. So I've got to say yes, I've got to capture this, because next month my phone's not going to ring.
Speaker 2:And so guys are trying to say yes to every job I'm going to get to you yeah, absolutely, let's get an estimate, I can get that to you. And then they've got so many people to deal with they can't do their work. They can't do their job, they can't get back to the ones that are hot leads that they've already started with and it turns into this cycle of losing those customers and also killing your name, right? So I've now got 20 people that are like, well, that's how Clark operates. I'm not going to call him again. And then their neighbor says hey, do you know anyone that renovates homes? Yeah, don't call this guy. We tried him. He's never responded. You're getting the reputation of someone that is slow, doesn't respond. Well, and so if you start, if you choose this contractor to work with, that's what you can expect when the job starts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no respect for fruit, no respect for the life cycle of a fruit yeah, it's a great metaphor, james, and I love, I love what you come up with. I think we can move on, I mean it's up to you, though, you can move on, I will for sure I'm still here in the fruit orchard. Uh, so what we want to do is figure out let's sort the fruit, sort the fruit into different baskets.
Speaker 1:I'll handle the fruit and it's bowls.
Speaker 2:We either want a yes I can do it, but not right now or a no, and this is why. And so what we want is yes, jobs and no jobs. So let's sort out the no jobs. I'm going to go through, and when I'm answering the calls, it's not a hey, can I get an estimate on my house? I'm going to do some renovations. Absolutely, send me your name and email and I'll let you know when I come out there. That's not the first call. Instead, it's yes, tell me a little bit about this. Let's role play. Okay, I'll be the client.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, hey, hey what's going on?
Speaker 2:What's going on? How can I help you?
Speaker 1:Well, I have. I got a couple projects at my house that we need to get done. Cool, I need a toilet replaced Right. There's a fan, yeah, in the living room that's clicking, yeah, and it's kind of wobbly, okay. And then there's a bunch of random paint spots around the house that I'd like to get a quote on having them all fixed.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's something that we would love to be able to do for you. So let me fill you in a little bit. We are a general contracting company, so with us it sounds like what you need is a handyman. It sounds like you need a day of handyman out at your house. I can do that for you with my crews, but you're going to be paying way more than hiring directly from a handyman For us doing that work is you're hiring a project manager to bring crews out to do the work for you, and what you're paying for is our service, our organization, being your advocate and taking care of your property for you, making sure all the crews do what they do.
Speaker 2:So like larger renovations, doing additions and kitchens and bathrooms those type of places where I shine and really kind of save you the most money. So what you're looking for I can do for sure for you, but I don't like to bid on jobs and I'm not going to be the best fit and the best price on for you. So if I were you, I would try and reach out to a handyman instead of a general contractor for just a small list of punch out stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Clark, I like the cut of your jib. I want to give you a million dollars right now.
Speaker 2:A million dollars, lindsay, lindsay, what you got to do is fire that last salesman I talked to, so so again it's, it's. I'm trying to not say honestly like that's not big enough for my company, yeah. I'm trying to not say honestly like that's not big enough for my company, yeah. Every single conversation that I have with a customer, they are the main character in it. Yeah, right. So I'm framing any sort of response around why it's best for them to not choose us, as opposed to honestly like that's too small for us. We just do big jobs. I don't even like grapes, yeah, us, we just do big jobs. I don't even like grapes, yeah. But but if I'm framing it around like for you, like I want to save you money and I only want to bid on your work that I can build value for, and so, like I, I could do it for you, but it's going to cost twice as much using a general contractor gouge you yeah, can I be?
Speaker 2:straight, I'm gonna gouge you like legit, like what you pay for with a general contractor is the management organization and making sure that the job gets done and bringing all the crews to do it.
Speaker 2:So when you're doing multi-trade things, where we're doing paint and electrical and flooring and multiple things in a property, that's where our best value is and we're the best bang for your buck that you're going to get. Yeah, if it's a one-off trade, if you're looking to paint one bedroom, I can do it for you, but it's going to cost because you've got a manager and the guy painting it. If you call a paint company, they'll send a painter out and they'll be able to do it for you. Probably half of what I can do, because it's a small job that they're built for. Yeah. And so if saving them money, trying to protect my reputation I don't want to be the highest bid that gives a sour taste in your mouth about my company and frame it around that customer that's them saying oh, thank you for redirecting me. I definitely will keep your number for the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you dropped the little Easter egg about. Here's where we do well and so they appreciated the candor, and so, whether they're doing a project, or their mom or their brother, their neighbors doing a larger project, oh, I had this guy that was really forthcoming with their abilities and what would be the most effective use of our money. So maybe you should try him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this takes some skill and practice. I think having this conversation, try it with your wife of why it's better for her to do the dishes than you tonight. I think having this conversation, try it with your wife of why it's better for her to do the dishes than you tonight, right, like, try and reframe the sales pitch. Yeah, try it On saying no to doing something. But legit, that is the best way to say no is this is why it's not best for you. They don't care about what's good for me. They don't. They are the client, I am the service person, I'm serving them and so it's. It's not a matter of that's inconvenient for me or that's way out outside of my. You know I don't really want to do it. You know that's too small. That sort of thing is like well, this guy's rude. This I I called you, I felt like I. Your website says you do that type of work like that. Are you false advertising? Right to where we're getting down to, to hurting our reputation and not landing a client?
Speaker 1:Right, and then we talked about it. That's a twofer.
Speaker 2:That's a twofer and we talked about like we. We had a negative review a number of years ago because of that conversation was done wrong and it's still on Google somewhere, I'm sure. But it will harm you by doing it the wrong way, by framing it around a. Honestly, that's too small for us. We're big boys. Big boys. People are like I don't what, I don't, I'm a big boy, I don't need that.
Speaker 2:So again, that's how we say no, if it's not a job that fits in my wheelhouse, I'm not telling them this doesn't fit in my wheelhouse, I'm telling them why it's better for them to choose me for something else. It's like if they called a plumber when their lights aren't working right. Like if you call a plumber and they're like, hey, I need my lights changed. Like oh, no, sorry, you need to call an electrician for that. Like we're plumbers, we do this. If you need plumbing work I can do, opposed to saying yes, let me put you on my schedule for an estimate, yeah, and then never getting back because it's not in my wheelhouse.
Speaker 1:And then they're like why haven't you come out? You're like, well, I'm not even an electrician.
Speaker 2:Then why did you say yes?
Speaker 1:Because you're the client.
Speaker 2:The client's always right, mean it's funny, but it's like it's happened that's.
Speaker 1:That's because it's funny, because it's true.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that's how we say no. If, if I'm picking a job that I don't want, and I think this gets a little tricky. Um, further down the road, when I go do an estimate and the client's unrealistic with their price, uh seems like the customer that is going to be the absolute biggest problem. Uh, throughout, like we can kind of forecast when you've been doing it long enough, like oh, I see how the final walk's gonna go with this lady yeah, like the like.
Speaker 1:uh, you come in and and they're like, yeah, these are all the paint spots that we want done. I just like the guys that did this just obviously were either drunk or like this is our first time they've painted a house and I've had a contractor before and they were just you know, they never showed up. They always were talking about you know, invoices I can't get someone to do it.
Speaker 2:Right. You're my third contractor to to to come in. Right, and it's like the last two guys wouldn't even send me emails back. Right, when we start sniffing those customers out up front, we're not going to ghost them. We're not going to just say, hey, we can't do it. I'm going to do two things.
Speaker 2:One like hey, listen, I am trying, and I think that's where we got the negative view on someone like this. But what I say to that person is listen, I, we, I want to be honest with every customer that I have. I would rather say no to a job and lose money than say yes and give you a bad experience. And we are booked right now, and so if I said yes to this job, I don't know where I'll fit you in our schedule and I'd rather save my reputation than say yes and get your money. That one sentence. I'd rather save my reputation than say yes and get your money. So I feel like I should like bow out of the bidding process and I'm sure you've got other contractors that you're talking to. But I would rather say no and lose money than say yes, take your money and not be able to give you the service that I know that our company does.
Speaker 1:Subtext I'd rather suck on a hot coal. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again, we don't have to lie, we don't have to. We don't have to lie, we don't have to make excuses. It's just like, hey, I don't know if I like for what you need and the timetable that you're on, like, well, I don't need it for the next year, we're booked, you're so booked. But but again it's like, hey, you know, if you need in a year, why don't we circle back then and I might have have more time? Why don't you give me a call when you start thinking about this again? And I make a note in the software of this is how the client acted and this is what happened, or whatever it is. So I am making it about them, about, like, I want to protect my reputation and that means I got to protect your money and you picking us right now would not do that and I want to make sure that I I, my reputation is the most important thing to me and I can't screw people. So if you give me a deposit and I can't get to the job for three months, I'm not okay with that. So I don't, I don't want to move forward yet and we're not really taking on any more work right now. I'm sorry, we've wasted your time with an estimate. That we did, you know, wasted our time too, but it wasn't a waste. Hopefully we can work together in the future. Care about you. They care about what, what is serving them. So that's how I'm framing those and once we get into it, I'm not ghosting them either, because those are the people that write you negative reviews. Those are the people that that trash your name. And if we do get in bed with one of those type of clients, if we can service and well, I mean we've said this multiple times and I could we could probably go through and name the customers. Let's do it. That'd be fine. If we can impress that customer, everybody in their circle knows that that's that they're that way. And if our company impressed that person, that's who I want to use. Right, and that's how we like. We put a sign in the front yard and their neighbors are like oh, you made the Wilsons happy. I'm going to call you, because if we've set up our systems and processes to handle the hardest clients, the not hard clients are super easy inside of our processes. So that's the way we want to frame it, that's the way we want to look at it and that's how we say no.
Speaker 2:Also, if I'm too full, I've got those 20 estimates that are waiting for me and I just don't have time to get to them all. One thing that we want to change desk estimates. Now, you know, I had one of my coaching clients like well, I just do a bunch of hardscapes and small jobs, so I don't have the ability to do a full desk estimate and then do a zoom and then sit through a two hour CEA Like it, like it's a $1,200, we're going to lay some sod somewhere. Absolutely not a problem. The desk estimate is secondarily helping you prep for the onsite and get an understanding of the job. So what we're going to do, when I've got 20 leads coming in and they're all for small jobs, I'm going to say, hey, listen, let's have a phone call. I'd love to chat with you, hear about what you're looking to get done and kind of let you know where we can fit you on the schedule. I'm on the phone with the person. They're like hey, I just need about 11 square feet of sod laid and then maybe three bales of pine straw put down right. I'm like okay, absolutely, we can get to you for that. You know our range for doing something like that is just going to be a day trip charge. We're at $400 for our crew to drive out there and do that. I don't know if that's in your price range.
Speaker 2:If it is, let's have that conversation and they say, yeah, that's kind of what I was expecting, great, well, let me do this. We are booked out currently for three weeks. We are booked out currently for three weeks. I'm going to put a note in my system. Then, three weeks from now, I'm going to call you and try to get you on the schedule. If you can wait that long, I'll follow up with you in three weeks. If you can't, I totally get it.
Speaker 2:If you're going a different way, do you have time to wait or is this something that you need immediately? Yeah, and if they need it immediately, say okay. Then I would again like we say no. I'd rather say no to this than say yes and not be able to service you and harm my current clients by trying to pull crews from their houses. So if you can't wait, no problem. Now it might be $400 job, but it's a schedule filler later on down the road, right, I can squeeze it in when I got a downed crew and make a couple hundred bucks, pay the crew, everyone's happy, no problem. I'm going to push that down the road. Everyone's happy, no problem. I'm going to push that down the road. I'm going to do it. I'm going to call them in three weeks. I'm going to set it up, I'm going to put on my schedule and fit them in at that time.
Speaker 2:I haven't driven out there, I haven't looked at it. I'm not just hopping in my truck and going to an estimate, I'm assessing it. I'm giving a roundabout price and then, if it's a bigger job, if it's hey, you know, we're looking to do a deck. Well, I, I'm at full capacity right now. If you send me some photos, some kind of like what you're looking, some dream photos of what you're looking to do, and kind of the square footage of what your current deck is, or we taking it down, putting the spot or just resurfacing it, like what do you want to do on the deck, and get five minutes of information from them, I can give them a roundabout number and a roundabout time when I can get out there say, hey, that deck, I mean, I've done one similar to that.
Speaker 2:We're looking anywhere from 10 000 to 25, depending on what, how eccentric you want like, how deep and detailed it's going to get. Uh, what, what finishes we're going to use so we can be in that range. Is that in your price range? I mean, is that kind of? There's a lot of variance in that.
Speaker 2:If so, let's schedule for three weeks from now for me to come out there and I'm building out my calendar because I'm organized. I've got my calendar built to where I know I've got openings and so I know that I do estimates on Wednesdays and Thursdays right. Monday I'm working my jobs. Tuesday I'm in the office. Wednesday Thursday are estimate days. Friday I'm back in the office. So three weeks from now I've got you scheduled for Wednesday at 8 am. Great, right. So then that fast forward three weeks. That Tuesday is my office day. I'm going through all my appointments for the week, sending an email hey, we'll see you tomorrow morning, 8 am.
Speaker 2:We're going to check out that deck because I've logged it in my software, I've got it all organized and I've set it and forget it for my next client. This is on my schedule. I don't think about it again. So those 20 people now I've got listed out over the next six weeks to do site visits because I've talked to them and verify that this is someone that is worth a site visit, right, and when you're doing that with 20 leads, it ends up being 15 leads because five of them are not going to wait for you or is not really in your wheelhouse of what you want to do. And so now we're not wasting time. Now we've got everyone scheduled, but now you've got to scheduled. But now you got to deliver.
Speaker 1:Now you got to actually go do those estimates and show up would you say that the proactive communication and the desk estimate, that whole thing kind of preserves the fruit? I think it's your refrigerator. That's exactly where I was going with this, so it's like a refrigerator.
Speaker 2:The entire time on my monologue I just gave. Were you thinking fruit? Yes, the entire time.
Speaker 1:Yes, Now you want Clark.
Speaker 2:yes, now you understand me, it's a deep freezer we're saving it to where we can thaw it out later.
Speaker 1:You lost me now. No, you can't deep freeze fruit. No, no, all right?
Speaker 2:Well, here I'll stick with your metaphor. It is a refrigerator, so in three weeks, if I then try to push them for another three weeks, you're probably losing it. So you've only got a small time frame, yeah to get back to the perfect, so I can put it in the refrigerator.
Speaker 2:Get, buy me some extra time. But I can't pull it out and say back in the refrigerator, yeah, because then it's gonna go bad at that time. So, yes, you're welcome, yes. So that being said, that is the but not right now. If I'm going to say yes, but I'm fully booked, you will be surprised when you say, hey, can I get to an estimate in three weeks, or is this something you need done today?
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's perfect. Oh OK, we're going on a trip next week.
Speaker 2:Perfect, let's do that Right. And so normally guys are like they called me, they want me to get out there today. They called me, they want me to get out there today. No, no, no, no. If that's the case, you don't have capacity to say yes to the job anyways, because they want to start the work that quickly. So I think it's a matter of expanding the front end conversation from 10 seconds, of getting their address and telling them you're going to try to figure out a time to get there to let's have, like, tell me more about the job. Let me take some notes. Let me put in my software, start your job card, get some information from you and then set up what I'm going to call you again. I do that on the call. I pull up my iPad, I set the job up. I literally don't have to think about it again because I've put it on my calendar and I've put a next client contact in the software. As to when I'm going to contact them, I don't have to think about it.
Speaker 2:I don't forget about it because it's all there in writing and I'm operating that way. So that is how we say yes to a job, but not now. Yes, we can do this, let's fill up the calendar, let's build that pipeline of work coming in to do it. I think doing that and changing your rhetoric, the way you say things, so people can hear it better the rhetoric of I'm framing this around giving you the best service, not around I'm too busy for you Same statement comes totally lands totally different on their ears. Yeah, right Of like, I'm just, I'm slammed right now. I don't know when I can get to this Versus. Absolutely Like, I don't want to take up your time. Are you able to do this in three weeks, because I've got a really busy schedule and I want to make sure that I can service you. Can we wait three weeks or is this kind of a pressing thing? If it's a pressing thing, great. I probably can't get to it for you. I'd love to have the opportunity to bid the next thing you have come up, but we're just in this random season where we're slammed this month. Awesome, no problem, we're great. We'll call you back, so all right.
Speaker 2:Last thing about this managing your calendar. I'm going to put one note in here that I want to add. When you are setting up that estimate let's say we're doing renovations I book someone out for next week to go to do an estimate for them. The way that we get back to that person is I've got a threehour block on Tuesday to drive out there, walk around the property and drive back. I'm going to put a two-hour block, a one-hour block, a 30-minute block, a three-hour block, depending on the size of the job. On Friday, on Wednesday, on Thursday, on whenever day I'm going to be in the office to write the estimate. So every estimate that comes in gets two time blocks on your calendar One to visit the site, one to write the estimate. So every estimate that comes in gets two time blocks on your calendar One to visit the site, one to write it up.
Speaker 2:Now, if you're doing a desk estimate, it's one for the desk estimate, and then we're also going to figure out when we're going to do a zoom to present the desk estimate to them. But I think through how you're committing your time, because we have the best intentions and not enough time to do them all. So let's have two time blocks on every calendar when I'm doing the estimate, the on-site or the desk estimate, and when I'm actually going to write it and present it back to you. Those are two separate time blocks and most guys just do the first one and then they're sitting in their bed at 11 o'clock at night trying to churn out estimates, missing line items, not giving descriptions and losing money on the job. That's it. Say no, don't be scared to say no, be picky, but be kind, save your reputation and say yes to the jobs that you, that are in your wheelhouse, and say no the right way to the jobs you don't want to do.
Speaker 1:And refrigerate your fruit. People Refrigerate your fruit. Refrigerate your fruit.
Speaker 2:That's hard to say, that is and by the end of the year you'll have a fruit smoothie. What, alright? Thanks for listening. If you want help with this, if you want to talk, go to prostruct360.com. The contact us has a link to my calendar. I'd love to have a 30 minute conversation for free with you, hear about your company, what you're doing, see if there's anything we can help you with. If not, I'd love to chat. So, prostruck360.com. See you all next week. Bye.
