Contractor Cuts
Join the ProStruct360 team on the Contractor Cuts podcast as we delve into the ins and outs of building and sustaining a thriving contracting business. Gain valuable insights and actionable tips from our experts who have successfully grown their own contracting company from the ground up.
Our show is dedicated to helping contractors like you unlock the secrets to increased profitability, efficient organization, and seamless processes within your company. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, our episodes cover key topics essential for your business growth and long-term success.
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Contractor Cuts
Building The Perfect Estimate
Unlock the secrets of crafting the perfect estimate and transform your contracting business. Join us as we dissect the art of using pre-built templates and line items to create comprehensive and precise estimates for construction projects. We'll delve into the nuances of balancing efficiency with detail, ensuring that your estimates are not just another bid but a tailored representation that aligns with client needs and expectations. Discover how maintaining and updating templates with accurate pricing can protect you from unforeseen challenges while simultaneously educating your clients.
Explore the finer points of pre-construction planning and the critical role clear communication plays in construction success. We guide you through setting realistic client expectations, navigating architectural drawings, and distinguishing between free and paid services. From the importance of tangible deliverables to the strategic creation of desk estimates, learn how to provide clarity and build trust with your clients before they commit financially. This episode emphasizes the importance of transparency and thorough research in establishing and managing client relationships effectively.
Finally, we unravel the complexities of project management, from the sequencing of tasks to handling potential financing challenges with foresight. Learn how to leverage construction management software like ProStruct360 to keep your projects organized and streamlined. With a focus on proactive communication and clear documentation, we highlight the necessity of early discussions about payment terms to prevent misunderstandings and ensure a smooth progression from estimate to project completion. Embrace these insights to enhance your contracting process and foster stronger, lasting client relationships.
Struggling to grow your contracting business? The Foundations Program is designed to help contractors break free from the chaos and build a business that runs smoothly. You’ll get a customized training program, 1-on-1 coaching, and access to a full paperwork database—including contracts and the Client Engagement Agreement. Join the Foundations Program today! 🚀
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Visit our website at ProStruct360.com
Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover the good, the bad and the ugly of growing a successful contracting company.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Contractor Cuts. My name is Clark Turner, I'm James McConnell. Thanks for joining us again Then this time. So today we're picking up from the last podcast. Last podcast we dove into how to land any client that you want Right, what is the best way to court them, to bring them in, to make them feel like this is the person that I have to go with, right. And so we talked about doing the front end conversation. What are we looking for in those conversations? How do we the kind of the art of building that relationship and trust with the customer, what am I asking for? And then what am I doing with the desk estimate and kind of going into that. So the long podcast before this is is is laying out all of that how to do that side of it, how to you know what we suggest on building that fit, the purpose of why, what we're doing and the goal when we're having that conversation with the customer. So this podcast we're going to dive a little bit deeper into now that we've got that. How are we building the desk estimate and then going into the actual onsite revision perfect estimate. So title of this podcast is Building the Perfect Estimate. It's kind of a part two of last week. But it's how do we start that process? So we're picking up where we left off.
Speaker 2:James, let's pick up on. You've talked to the customer. You've kind of got a scope that they emailed you. You got some photos of the space. Let's go with a $120,000 addition, just an additional bedroom going off the back of the house. Let's kind of use that as our example. Let's do it Sure.
Speaker 2:Let's just spit, spit balling Um what's the next step, like how do you build a desk estimate for something that big without spending four hours on it? And then how do you hone that from there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Uh, so obviously it's really helpful when you have something where you can have prebuilt line items that you can actually start with. So I'm always updating my line items, the ProStruct 360. What's the? What is the tab for the line items? You have to go into the.
Speaker 2:You go into my company and my company item presets and also there's now the the job template presets so you can build out all of your line items, all of your sections, and save it as a template, and so like on a new build or an addition. You can have an addition with bathroom template or an addition. Uh, you know, however you want to build it, you click on that and all your line items are already there.
Speaker 1:This is relatively new. So that's a really exciting thing, because the way that I'm always updating our line items like when we use one and we're talking through the scope and someone says something, oh, that should be part of that line item, I stop, I go into the thing. I update that line item with the new verbiage if there's new pricing, because we just got two bids back and the pricing has kind of gone up. We're finding the market's changing, always updating those, because once you have that and you can just say here's the template for an addition and then the more you get, you can obviously kind of hone that in and you have a pretty nice catalog of stuff that you can use. But there's the. The care. The care that you put into an estimate really shows up like clients really clients have really appreciated, even if we don't go with them, and this goes back to like landing that person down the road. I have had so many people say I really appreciate the thought that went into this. It seems really thoughtful and the. Those are the like when you take the time to say this is what the foundation work is going to look like. But you, you also include in that little caveats. I put notes in all of my line items types of things that in this project scenario are going to affect that line item. Potentially you can pre-build those in and have those like kind of CYA type things. But I don't even. I try not to even consider them CYA anymore and think about it in terms of educating. So the notes that I'm putting in my pre-built line items should be sufficient for foundation work.
Speaker 1:If we're digging, the estimate assumes perfect conditions. When we hit rocks, that's always going to affect the pricing. If there's a pool that somebody buried, obviously you can put things like that in. You don't want to go crazy with it. But there might be specific jobs that you know. There's things that you need to understand before you can give them legitimate numbers. Like we need to get the arborist to see if we can even dig around this tree and if not, things are going to change.
Speaker 1:So anything that you can put in there that gives them an understanding, every line item could have something in it pretty easily without you taking too much time. Like you know some things and then when you're talking to them, when you're reviewing it, the whole caveat at the front is there's some notes in here. I've put in some concerns or maybe some thoughts of what we could do if we needed to go a different direction, or maybe some thoughts of what we could do if we needed to go a different direction, but ultimately, all of this is like you're showing them the whole time that this isn't here's my estimate, and take it or leave it. It's we're trying to figure out what you want, because what you're getting from other people more than likely is a very, very poorly thought out understanding of the project. Yeah, and what we're trying to do is figure out, like you said earlier or, I guess, in the last podcast, the uh, your your budget with your expectation, and I'm sorry, how did you say it?
Speaker 2:The purpose of this, of this process, is really it's. I'm trying to build trust and, on top of that, have the right fit like we fit each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but there was something you said it was.
Speaker 2:It's not completing tasks, no, it was the Venn diagram the budget. It was good. It was good it was. It's building trust, making sure we have the, the we fit each other and then making sure that your uh, your vision is what we can achieve.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, but it was like a take-home nugget that you said oh, it's a listen, this isn't what you're saying, is not doing it for me the way it did it for me the last time.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry. We'll move on. But yeah, you're trying to find. It's not just here's the number, like there's so much stuff you don't know, yeah, and the more you can help them understand that there's so much stuff that we don't know, there's so much stuff that you don't know. You haven't even shopped for cabinets, so you know that you are good with the price that I showed you. But we haven't talked about the trim you want. We haven't talked about the lazy Susans. We haven't talked about how you want all drawers less doors. We haven't talked about the. You have a really high quality taste in quartz that nobody knew about until you went to the courtyard for the first time. So there's a ton of stuff that we don't know.
Speaker 1:And the more they understand that they're in a process, they're not in an exchange, the more you keep that conversation going. But that's why the due diligence piece is so important. That's how I stopped myself from uh, working, continuing to work without getting paid, yeah, and it kind of everything leading up to this kind of sets the stage, for I've done a lot of legwork for you, I've done a lot of research, I've built all this stuff out and I need you to understand that this is still not a completely baked scope, but I hope that I've built enough trust with you at this point so that you understand that there's money that needs to be spent before I can actually give you real numbers. And if I gave you numbers now and you want me to tell you they're real, I'm going to fluff them up and it's not going to be real and like it's not honest. It's not the way I want to operate. This is this is going to give me the ability to give you a really good bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I've lined all the ducks up but I don't. I can get you cabinets for 10 grand, for 20 grand or 40 grand, like I don't know what you're looking for cabinet wise, and there's so many variations that I can do this new kitchen for for $40,000, for probably 15,000 or 200,000. And so it's, it's understanding. A I want to capture what you're looking for and B I don't want to get thrown out when the guy I'm competing against comes in at half my price. Yeah, and so that's. That's part of building. That estimate is I want the details in there. Uh, I love what you're saying to the pre-built line items having in the description your inclusions and exclusions on that line. This is this doesn't include this. This does include this. Having that pre-built in there and then building out your scope. Even in the preset line items you can have quantities. So I can do a 2,000 square foot addition and have all my quantities preset for 2000 square feet and so I can quickly just churn that out. Uh, and so that allows me to. All, right, I'm going to do this scope.
Speaker 2:Now, how can I refine each of these lines to make it perfect for this job? What's missing on here? Oh, I've. You know I'm not having to think through oh, I got to put a dumpster on there. Oh, I got to remember to do cleaning, I got to like that's all preset on there, right, you've got that in the template and so it's automatically on there. All I'm really thinking through are the big picture items, right, what type of um you know, if we're doing an addition, what? What's going on the outside of the house? Yeah, what am I matching to? What's the roofing like? What's well?
Speaker 1:and a lot of those things are, and this is where you need to determine and part of this is like how good are your line items? How? How much time is it going to take you to put all this together? Cause you do need to. There needs to be a place where I don't need to spend five hours on this before they've made any sort of commitment to me. But I do want to spend like a good chunk of time if I feel like it's a legitimate shot because I'm going to be able to do this project the right way, the way I feel like I'm going to be successful, and if I can impress them and we keep this relationship piece. They're going to. They're going to bend to try and work with me yeah, and. And I'm going to. They're going to bend to try and work with me yeah, and. And I'm going to do the same. And so it's like it's really kind of reframing that relationship, getting them to see that I'm not just trying to do a bid for you, I'm trying to put it together in a way that makes sense for this project yeah, and so part of like the.
Speaker 1:I think the danger of putting together these templates is great. I've got one, just like that, boom, send it out. I'm in a rush Like don't do that, don't get used to that, because that job, that one time that you do that, becomes this thorn in your side because you didn't follow the process. And so your conversations with them are oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's right, it's. Uh, it's actually not that, it's this, and it's confusing. So when you, if you do have those templates, go through and follow the construction process, like every one of my projects, it follows the same thing. So when I'm walking through it, it just becomes like, okay, I got to remember this, got to check this. And the more times you're like telling yourself I to remember that, well, put that in your line item, you can delete stuff out of your line item.
Speaker 1:I put like project manager notes all the time that, um preset on your descriptions and it says delete, you know pm note or delete, uh, the estimator note where it's like kind of a weird line item, yeah, that you need to like explain how something is priced. You know, every once in a while you run into something you can't quite do a linear foot or this, that or the other on it, um, but yeah, I always keep everything in the same process, um, and that helps when you're going through, like if you have to do a bank loan or something like that. If you have a dedicated process it's a lot easier to envelop somebody else's because you, you know what yours is and you know how to. Uh, you know it well enough that it's not going to screw you up completely having to use the bank's documentation to to run a project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, when you're building out that desk estimate, what are you leaving off the estimate? What's okay to not include on there?
Speaker 1:This is definitely one of those. You need to prepare the client for what it's going to be, especially if they're giving you drawings. If they're giving you drawings, you need to know if that drawing set is like how did you tell the architect exactly what you wanted? And like, the trim that he's calling out for you is actually uh, like, uh like epa, super grade, uh, true tech plus, it's 40 a stick, like is did you select that? Or did they just put that in there? Because there's a ton of stuff like that in those drawings and so you need to know what they're expecting. Or you need to say, hey, all I'm going to use this for is to get general understanding of linear footages. I'm not going to read through the specs just yet. I'm not going to read through this, that and the other. So this is going to give us a ballpark and I will eventually go through it in that type of detail, but I want to make sure that we're in the right range first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if I'm doing a desk estimate on a large addition or even a new build, I'm not spending four hours on it, but I am doing trim package per square footage. I'm doing flooring per square footage. I'm doing framing per square footage. I'm doing roofing per square. I'm going to have that kind of as my base model. I'm doing roofing per square. I'm going to have that kind of as my base model. I'm not opening up the blueprint and again, everyone's different. I'm not opening the blueprints, kind of I'm not counting out the number of walls to get my exact linear feet of trim. That we're running Right, and for me it's. I want to make sure that when this bid finishes and it's at $280,000, that the homeowner's budget isn't 100,000, because at that point I'm not. I don't, I don't need to waste any more time. You can't get this done. For what you're looking to get done, yeah, but but I think it's also.
Speaker 2:I also don't want to strip down. I've got five line items. Here's your price, kind of the basic basic, and so that's kind of where a lot of the art of it is that we've been talking about, of what is okay to leave off, what should be included and what what. How do you make the decision between those things like what do you say? You know, on this one? I'm going to go ahead and add this detail in where where's your brain on that?
Speaker 1:I honestly, a lot of it comes from the conversation with the person from the very beginning and like because as much as you want to, as much as you want to, as much as you want to pigeonhole it into, like the process, where it's like okay, they say this, then there's these three options, and then this happens and there's two options here, two options here, and maybe that's good for some people.
Speaker 1:I, every person, has such a different need, like when you know you're doing an addition and they're trying to figure out their big question is are we going to go out or up, and how much research do I need to do to answer that question is kind of the big thing. It's like what's your goal? How much research do I need to do to like reasonably give you an answer to that before we have to start spending money? Yeah, and you're going to find the. I think maybe the best way to say this is you're just going to need to do that and find that line, like with your clients, and they'll tell you where that line is. You need to be upfront about what you're offering and what the scope is that you're presenting them with, so that you aren't committing to something that you're not ready to commit to.
Speaker 1:But, at some point you need to commit.
Speaker 2:And this is why we do it over Zoom, because if I just email that off to them there is so much loss in translation. Either I've underwhelmed or overwhelmed, and either one of those are bad.
Speaker 1:I want to well.
Speaker 2:I want to be right in the middle to where it's like this is great, this is perfect.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think another point on this is one of the best line items to use that we always have a section at the top of these are the pre-construction, what you're paying me for before construction starts, Right? Uh, and that can be on your desk estimate and that also allows you a spot to point out what they are when they have to start paying me and when they get what they need. Because a line item with if I'm doing the blueprints and dealing with an architect on that, that's going to be my pre-construction line item. You're going to pay me up front for that and we're going to get the architect. But I want you to know when you want me to go talk with your architect, before you've even signed documents with me, I can point some of my desk estimates and say, actually, yeah, I can do that.
Speaker 2:That line item's $2,500. That includes this, this and this. So if you want to move forward with us, I can absolutely go meet with your architect. But by having it on the desk estimate on the pre construction section, I'm able to use that as my line of demarcation between free work and paid work. Right, and so, James, what? How, if you were building like the perfect standardized pre construction section. What would you include in that and what would be the roundabout pricing for different size jobs?
Speaker 1:um, well, pre-construction are you talking about? Are you talking about, like due diligence?
Speaker 2:yes, okay yeah, like when, what's the stuff that you're charging for? Yeah, before construction starts, that you're going to put in that pre-construction, so in pre-construction I'll have a couple different things.
Speaker 1:I have separate things broken out for like the permitting, the architect, the engineer, arborist, if we need it, you know whatever. Those things have their own pricing and they're part of pre-construction and they're kind of part of due diligence. Due diligence is its own line item altogether. I pre-build it, but I always am working with that line item the entire time because I'm I'm taking notes in there. So due diligence is what can I? The question I ask myself when I'm trying to fill out due diligence is what is reasonable for me to charge for that I don't have to necessarily spend money on. So, getting like lumber packages put together, the Gantt chart I put on there, say we're going to build out a Gantt chart and we're going to keep that updated. Um, we're going to get a lumber package that's going to help us in due diligence, make sure that our lumber pricing is correct.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, getting like all of like the hardware and stuff that you don't nobody ever prices out. They're just like 2000 bucks for Simpson strong ties and stuff that nobody ever prices out. They're just like $2,000 for Simpson Strong Ties and all that kind of stuff You're putting in this. Hey, this is what I'm going to do Permit research, permit research. I need to. I have to get on site with whoever's drawing the plat and the septic guy so he can tell us where the fuel lines need to go.
Speaker 1:All of those meetings, all of those things that are going to take place before. You have all of the information that you can possibly have to give them a quote that you feel good standing behind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the sales pitch for that is listen, I'm not going to make you sign on something that you don't know what the price is, so I'm going to let you just buy this small amount of my time and that way I can make sure that you aren't over committing to something that you, that you're not sure of, right, and you say. You pitch it that way to the customer. They're like thank you and you and you get the takeaways?
Speaker 1:Uh, how do I? I say, uh, due diligence, deliverables, and then I just list out the things that they're going to get, the tangible things that they're going to get. And part of that is I'm meeting on site with my framer. I'm going to be meeting on site with this guy. I'm going to be meeting on site. I'm spending time here. I'm spending time here, I'm spending time here, and this is the total that you're going to pay me to figure out what the quote is. That's essentially the name of the game.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to ask you for 50% up front. I'm going to ask you for more money up front than you were probably expecting before. We have a quote, yes, but you're getting these tangible take-home things that you're going to have to spend that money anyway. Due diligence is what you're paying me to get you to the point where we're ready to start this project and, if you need to use somebody else because we're too expensive, get you to the point where we're ready to start this project and if you need to use somebody else because we're too expensive, you have all of the documentation. You've got a scope that you can shop around to whoever you want. Like, I don't want to say that, but I do say that all the time.
Speaker 1:And it's rarely has anyone ever, I mean we don't we don't get. Um, there's projects we don't land and I'm sure sure people could go do that. It's normally because of price, though it's normally because of price, and at the end of the day, you've got to be okay losing bids on price if you know what you want your price to be. You spent a lot of time on it.
Speaker 2:We charged them about $5,000 for due diligence and we came back higher than what they were approved for and they ended up walking and buying a house somewhere else. But you got paid five grand for doing the amount of work up front for them and they were fine with, they were happy with it. Like that makes sense because the way we explained it and told them up front about it and I think that that price point is going to vary depending on what I'm doing right and so a good thing that I always push to is like we can get the, the permit process started for you. Like we've got the plans, we we've got this, this and this. Let me go ahead and apply for permits. That's part of this and that way that's is a tangible that they can take with them. But they pick us or not. You need this permit in.
Speaker 2:You know, in process for us to understand what's going to be required to get the final pricing, I need to meet with the city to see if they're going to make us change the footprint move. You know not be able to cut trees down, whatever it is. So a lot of that is going to determine pricing because you know there's all sorts of factors of your time that you're spending on it. Yeah, so that's that's kind of your pre-con slash due diligence spot. What is, if there was something that you get between the desk estimate and the and the revised estimate, what is the biggest change usually for you and stuff that's been added, stuff that's changed? What's the biggest variable line items that you see from when you're building that desk estimate until kind of the, the converted, finalized estimate or close to finalism, the stuff a?
Speaker 1:finalized estimate or close to finalism. The stuff that changes the most is yeah, I mean it's clients saying that they actually want this or what if we did this, I'd really think that, thinking about now, I'd want to do that Because when you're doing the initial bit bit, you're not getting this super detailed dream dream. This is the type of grout we want to do and I want this type of you know it's scrolly, trim or whatever. Yeah, you're having it's more of a box that you're saying and these are the, these are the things that need to go in this box. Prices are going to vary but based on the spec, it's going to cost about this much. There's a lot more detail than that, but essentially that's what you're trying to do.
Speaker 1:When they start interacting with the project manager, if you're the project manager, things start changing and getting a little bit more detailed because of the changes that they're making. But like the big stuff, the really big stuff of the changes that they're making. But like the big stuff, the really big stuff and the stuff that we try and prepare people for ahead of time is cabinets and countertops, because we can put something in there all day, but until they get on site with our supplier or at the slab yard and they start making selections. You know we can put any number of any number in there and it could be different the next day. Like those, prices change, so so much Level of finish is probably your biggest variation, right?
Speaker 2:The difference of putting in some really cheap LVP versus high end hardwood, right.
Speaker 1:I think it could be but, like because of the first conversation, I kind of understand the direction that they want to go.
Speaker 1:So it really, when you're talking about fit and finish, it's if you get caught up somewhere. It's cabinets and countertops, yeah, and people are typically surprised always that it jumps up because they just get spend happy when they're in the slab yard and then they get home and they get the quote and they're like slab yard and then they get home and they get the quote and they're like whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened? How could this be more?
Speaker 2:you're like you walk three aisles over in the granite store.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where it tripled the price. That's what happened. Did you see the three dollar signs as opposed to the one?
Speaker 2:yeah, so that that, you think, is the biggest variation. What about if you're missing stuff that you forgot to put on the estimate? What's the number one thing that you miss, or a couple things that you you often miss when building an estimate?
Speaker 1:what types of things did you miss? Um, if I'm missing stuff, it's it's like the little caveats that are not already pre-written, so like, or if I'm in the middle of kind of changing a line item or something it's like. A good example is I'm moving from a preset like a surround and pan being all together, like pouring the shower pan on the surround and the shower tile floor, separating those out to be more tile square footage pricing, and then the pan would be just an additional line item. And as I'm transitioning those, like, you forget to put the pan in, but you did the surround because it, you know, similar whatever Dumpsters is always one that people forget, but that's why it's so important we have a template, and not even just your template, but knowing what your process is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some people always do cabinets after flooring, some people do flooring after cabinets. Everybody has their own opinion. But how do you what? What do you think flows and why do you think it flows that way? Yeah, um, and stick with it, but there's always going to be things like it makes more sense to put this here. Hey, instead of doing gutters at the end, let's just let that one be a floating thing and figure out a good time to do it whatever, but knowing your process uh like the construction process specifically helps you really know how to be creative for your client.
Speaker 2:And not to keep harping on ProStrux 360, but if you have that software with the preset job templates, you can build out your sections. Are they a sponsor? They are a sponsor of the show Whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah. Yeah, you'll get your goodie bag in the mail for their sponsorship. But you can build out your different sections and put line items in them in the way that your brain works. So I'm going to start with my pre-construction, my due diligence. That's just going to be there, and then I might put a line item in there that's hidden from client and I can have a preset that's hidden from client. And when it's on my quote it's also hidden from the client, so it just automatically shows up to where you can see it, but your customers can't. But then you can, like you said, I want to do my demo and haul off first. That's the way I work. So other people would say, well, that's going to be at the end of my quote, so I'm going to put it down there. But you can build out every single sections that you use. If you're doing the full thing on the template, then you go in there and delete stuff out. Okay, we're not doing landscaping. Okay, we're not doing it and so you can customize. Uh, you can have kind of your preset, knowing this is everything I need to do, kind of a fail safe to check.
Speaker 2:Okay, landscaping oh, I didn't ask them about landscaping. Let me ask hey, am I doing landscaping on this? That's where we're catching that now, as opposed to a change order later and the price is ticking up and they're angry with you. So, putting that together, we've done the desk estimate. You've done the conversation with them. Going to the site estimate, we revised that. We've been on site. You've met with people. They've probably done some due diligence agreements to where they're doing that, the next steps on building that, that estimate. We're going to sign a client engagement agreement. We're going to sit down and meet with them for hour and a half it depends on the job, like 45 minutes to two hours, something like that.
Speaker 2:And we're going to go through the client engagement agreement. If you haven't heard us talk about that, it's if you're in our coaching program you get. You get it for free, but it's our seven to eight to nine to 10 page. It keeps growing agreement of what you need to do, what the customer needs to know about this renovation. It's what their expectations should be of you, what you expect of them, what you know, the warranty information, how our payments work, and we, under you, know. That's a good spot where we start asking them about you know, are you doing financing? How do the draws work? What bank are you using? Is this cash? All of those understandings, because if I'm jumping through hoops for banks, I might need to put a charge on there for that if I'm having to meet bank inspectors or fill out additional paperwork. So I'm having that conversation at that point.
Speaker 1:Honestly, that's a good conversation to bring up as early as you can, but it definitely gets left off because it's uncomfortable. Like great, yeah, awesome, can't wait to actually work on this. How would you be paying?
Speaker 2:for this project, if I actually landed it.
Speaker 1:How is the payment going to pay money? Work the money part.
Speaker 2:You're driving a 10-year-old Honda. You don't have the cash for this. How are you paying me, clark Clark? So that's a conversation to have early, but you have to have it at some point. You're not having another front-end conversation, but you have to have it at some point. Yeah Right, you're not having another front end conversation, but you're definitely having it. But, understanding all that stuff, the final kind of change that you're going to have on the estimate, when are you asking for a signature and when do you think the changes stop? I mean, obviously there's change orders throughout the job, but we all we always talk about you know, you do your, your trade walks, and then there's probably a third to fourth revision. At that point, yeah, have that conversation with me. Like I'm your customer, like what are you saying to them saying, hey, I need you to sign here, I need you to give me a deposit, I need you to pay me, and then also, this is all going to change some if I was wrong. Okay, just like a client. Sure, yeah, role play, you hold hands.
Speaker 1:Listen, yeah, and this is going to be tough, okay, but I'm here.
Speaker 2:I'm here for you. We're in this together. Yeah, I'm uncomfortable paying you.
Speaker 1:I'm uncomfortable accepting your payment. I'm uncomfortable holding hands. I know.
Speaker 2:Lean in, no, but for real, like what's the pushback on that? What do customers cause? That's a tough conversation. Like hey, I need you to sign this document. We're moving forward with this $180,000 reno, but I might change it once I get on site with my plumber and they, they already know it.
Speaker 1:They already know that because of the way that you've already laid it out, so it shouldn't be a surprise to them at that point.
Speaker 1:It is that's your cue to uh like go back and lay out that process, yeah, but when you, when you initially tell them, I'm gonna put this, I'm gonna put this desk estimate together for you, uh, and then I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do this, and then we're not, you're not gonna exchange any money until we talk through due diligence and all that kind of stuff. And you're going to have, like, when you do the review with them on zoom or over the phone or in person, you zoom in or in person is really best, but you can really talk to them about that in due diligence. So once they know that you're not, um, once they know that you're legit and that you've put together, oh, this is, uh, this is the best estimate I've seen. It's more expensive than I want it to be, but it's detailed. I can see how much I'm spending on material. I can see what they're budgeting for this. That's great. Um, they're going to have more open ears to be like okay, so what's? What's the deal then? So you don't do 50% down, you don't do this. The deal is this is still an estimate. And in order for me to stand behind this and say, hey, this is a quote, like, there's still, yeah, there could still be change orders, but we're going to, I'm not going to pay. I'm not going to pay for stuff just because it's uh, it should have been on the scope, because we're. This is a process that we're going through together and I want to make sure that you understand exactly what's in here.
Speaker 1:If you do a bedroom and there's a closet missing on your, you don't write closet. Well, a bedroom has to have a closet. That's a different story. But when they're like different story. But when they're like hey, in the drawings there's a um, uh, there's a work, a mud, a bench in the mud room that you don't, that you didn't have in there, uh, the drawings are are always kind of moving and changing in, like in this specific example, it wasn't even uh, like highlighted. So it's like it wasn't part of the actual renovation. It was, could have been a piece of furniture.
Speaker 1:Essentially, just because we didn't have that in there doesn't mean we need to pay for it because it wasn't in the scope, it wasn't budgeted with the numbers, it is a miss. It definitely makes us look bad. It doesn't mean I need to eat, you know, $1,200 of labor to build you a custom thing and then pay $400 for the material. It just means that got missed. We both didn't catch it, and that's you need to be setting that conversation up way ahead of time. They need to understand that this is a process that you guys are working through together, which also means you need to walk the walk, which also means you need to walk the walk. You need to be ready to be collaborating with your client and not annoyed that they're bringing you questions or annoyed that they're bringing you selections and you're not getting paid to be a designer. But you never actually said that you wouldn't help them with selections, and so now you're stuck in a problem. That part of it.
Speaker 2:It's also like if I have that conversation three weeks ago about how it happens on signature payment and walking with trades, that's part of it. I understand it. So when we get there, I say, hey, remember, that's where we're at now. That's why we're doing this. Yep, that's right, we're good If I'm sitting there saying, hey, james, all right now, if you're ready to move forward with me, I need some money from you and I'm going to revise assessment one more time. You're like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking about? It's uncomfortable. It's like he's not going to want to give me that money. He's not going to want to do this because it's sprung on the person, right, it's. It's the whole, like if we're going on a hike and we're just walking, and then also I'm like, oh, hey, also, I need you to carry this 30 pound backpack yeah like what I didn't.
Speaker 2:Even I don't want. I don't want to do that where did you get that from? I didn't even see you bring that. But if I say the day before, hey, we're gonna go hiking, would you mind carrying this tomorrow, we do it. Yeah, that's fine absolutely but when we? Get there, thank you and I give it to you. It's not a surprise.
Speaker 2:Yeah we already talked about this. That's part of the. That's just how we do this right, and so it's that it's the same thing that's happening. But if they know about it ahead of time, it's not blindsided them. So it's it's that conversation of this is it's always the next three steps that we're doing and we'll go to this stage. Yeah, so cool. I think that's good. I think we're good on the perfect estimate, doing the desk estimate all the way through to the final estimate and getting the job started. I think those are really helpful things. If you guys have any pushback, want to hear anything else from us, please go to ProStruck360.com, Hit, contact us, Reach out, Love to talk to you, chat with you and, yeah, sign up for ProStruck360, the software.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and click the link and then buy it Click the link and the bell and the subscribe, buy it. Thanks guys, bye.
