Contractor Cuts
Join the ProStruct360 team on the Contractor Cuts podcast as we delve into the ins and outs of building and sustaining a thriving contracting business. Gain valuable insights and actionable tips from our experts who have successfully grown their own contracting company from the ground up.
Our show is dedicated to helping contractors like you unlock the secrets to increased profitability, efficient organization, and seamless processes within your company. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, our episodes cover key topics essential for your business growth and long-term success.
Make the most of your time between job sites by tuning in to our podcast and learn firsthand how to navigate the challenges of the contracting industry. Get ready to transform your business with valuable information that can potentially change the trajectory of your success.
Don't miss out on this opportunity to gain the knowledge and strategies you need to take your contracting business to new heights. Subscribe to Contractor Cuts today and empower yourself with the tools and insights to thrive in the industry.
Contractor Cuts
Is it Business or Personal? How Owning a Business Challenges Our Ego
Ever wondered why contractors often feel an emotional whirlpool while dealing with clients? Join us on this episode of Contractor Cuts as we unpack the intense emotions that come with the territory. We’ll show you how to shift from taking client feedback personally to using it as a stepping stone for improvement. By drawing a parallel to selling milk, we offer valuable insights on managing conflicts and transforming client dissatisfaction into opportunities for growth.
Maintaining professionalism and respect is crucial, especially when faced with challenging clients. Through real-life scenarios and industry examples like Delta Airlines' software glitch, we stress the importance of self-awareness and emotional control. Discover strategies to ensure your reputation remains intact, even when clients push your buttons. Learn why setting clear expectations and keeping your cool can lead to long-term success and a sterling reputation in the contracting world.
Handling client issues with professionalism can turn even the toughest situations around. We dive into effective strategies for resolving conflicts, emphasizing empathy, proactive communication, and owning up to mistakes. Hear about a contractor's dilemma with the wrong roofing shingles and how to manage unexpected project issues. From navigating financial challenges to understanding legalities in contracts, we provide practical advice to help you build trust and ensure client satisfaction. Listen in and equip yourself with the tools to handle any client curveball with grace and professionalism.
Struggling to grow your contracting business? The Foundations Program is designed to help contractors break free from the chaos and build a business that runs smoothly. You’ll get a customized training program, 1-on-1 coaching, and access to a full paperwork database—including contracts and the Client Engagement Agreement. Join the Foundations Program today! 🚀
Go to ProStruct360.com or schedule a meeting with Clark at Have a question or an idea to improve the podcast?
Email us at team@prostruct360.com or text us at +1 (678) 940-5747
Want to learn more about our software or coaching?
Visit our website at ProStruct360.com
Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover the good, the bad and the ugly of growing a successful contracting company.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Contractor Cuts. My name is Clark Turner, I'm Jared Flo. Thanks for joining us again this week. So today we are diving into the reason that construction and owning your own business gets so personal sometimes Gets under your skin. Yeah, I feel like 50% of the clients we work with. One of the biggest issues that they're dealing with is how angry they get and how much they dislike their clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so have we Many, many, many times.
Speaker 2:That's true, that's true, that's true, there's been plenty of clients that we've wanted to throw out a window and just get rid of and just say, screw you.
Speaker 1:I'm not finishing your job. That client's an idiot. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so today we're diving into that. We're diving into the mindset of why we feel that way, how it happens kind of the path that we take to get there, what we need to do about it, what we're doing wrong and how are we going to fix it. What are we going to do about it? Wrong and how are we going to fix it, what are we going to do about it? And kind of situational. This is how you should be acting differently. This is kind of how you should be deflecting and changing, and if you do these things, that's going to really, really set aside majority of your issues. You're still going to have those, the issues with the client who's?
Speaker 2:crazy, but we're going to stop creating the crazy clients and so we're dealing with a lot less of it.
Speaker 1:It's also like we're going to set yourself up to not antagonize and make it even worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly so, jared, why do you think that people, that contractors specifically, or anyone really in the construction industry, gets so angry? You know why are we so angry often with clients. You know why are we so angry often with clients?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and I think the basis of it is personal versus business, yeah Right, and creating a good example, I'll just take something that, as we were talking about this and kind of processing something that you said, if I am selling milk, you know, going back to something that we use, using the grocery store metaphor, if I'm selling milk and somebody comes in and says I don't like your milk, right, if the perspective that I've got is this is personal for me, that my ego is involved and you saying that you don't like my milk means that you don't like the efforts that I've put into it, you don't like me, you don't like the business, you don't like the store, you don't like, and it becomes this personal hit against me, I am going to naturally try to fight, yeah Right, because it's painful, it's rejected, it feels, it feels like you're being rejected personally, right, if you are operating it as a business and somebody comes in and says, hey, I don't, I don't like your milk, I'm like, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Is there something I can do to help solve that issue for you? Like, no, I just don't like your milk. Oh, this seems like they're being a little bit unreasonable. But, okay, cool, there's a store right down the street that has different milk, if you'd like to go there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the difference. It's such a great example because the difference is, if I'm running a business and I'm selling milk and someone says, hey, I don't like your milk, I say okay, all right, and I'm going to be inquisitive because I want to understand. Right, I want to know, hey, what? Tell me more like was it sour? Or just doesn't taste right, or you know.
Speaker 1:I have to walk all the way to the back of your store to get them.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, interesting. What if it was in a different location? And so I'm going to be curious, I want to know. I don't take that personally. I'm like, okay, something needs to be fixed here, no problem, there's something wrong, obviously, in your opinion, and I'm going to hear it. But at the end of the day I'm going to take it and say you know what? I don't mind people walking to the back of the store, so I'm fine leaving it there. It is what it is. Sorry, customer, maybe we're not the best fit for you.
Speaker 2:The problem is in construction. We own the cow. We milked the cow ourselves, we refrigerated it, we pasteurized the milk, we brought it and we bottled it and we set it down. And then someone says I don't like your milk. And we say, well, screw you, my milk's the best milk. And it's this personal assault the best milk. And I do that. And it's it's this personal assault. You know, in being a business owner, in a small company, the business itself is me often right. That's where it always starts. I'm the business, I am the product. I don't like what you have to offer. Yes, and that's what, that's what we hear. I showed up, I did the design of this kitchen. I installed the kitchen. I did it. I think it looks great. I laid the tile on the backsplash myself and the customer's like, hey, the tile job looks terrible. My immediate reaction is screw you, I did that. You can't say that about me, or?
Speaker 1:even if it was my tile guy.
Speaker 2:Right, screw you. This is my work of art.
Speaker 1:This is what I do.
Speaker 1:You don't know, I'm the contractor, right, and so it's this, this, this insecurity, right.
Speaker 1:If we get down to the base of it, like you can't tell me who I am, I know bad jobs, bad clients.
Speaker 1:In the past You've realized that the ones that have gone well felt like we were friends. Right, me and the clients were friends, and because of that you might start trying to lead you know what I'm going to develop this relationship a friendship where we enjoy, we're jovial, we're fun, blah, blah, blah, and it it crosses the boundary of business and personal to this as a friendship where, if you're viewing it through that lens, a friend wouldn't come back and say certain things, wouldn't come back and critique you on things. The difference is and here's one point I want to make about that is like going a different direction, where you're not, you're not. Trying to be friends with them Doesn't mean you have to be disingenuous and be cold towards them, but you have to understand that they're paying for you, they're buying you, so there is a sense of ownership on both sides of I'm paying for this, so I get what I want, and sometimes I've got to say something that may be uncomfortable to somebody because I bought something, I had an expectation and they didn't deliver.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what you're saying is exactly right. A lot of guys enter business relationships the same way we enter friendships, and that's where some of the issues start happening. If you think about going and checking into a nice hotel, the person behind, hey, mr Turner, how are you doing? It's so great to see you. Welcome, we've got your room ready. Let me take your bags. They're not doing that because they're just like me. That's what I'm paying them to do. They are hired to stand here and make me feel good about entering into their hotel. They don't care about me. They do. They're going to hire people that care for their customers, but at the end of the day, if I can't pay, they're kicking me out.
Speaker 1:But if I'm going in and I'm engaging as if it's a friendship, it's actually more disingenuous, because I'm not looking for a friend. Yeah, I'm not looking.
Speaker 2:Maybe you are.
Speaker 1:Maybe it could be true, but I'm not looking to add to my friend group and if I am, this is not the forum for that. Yeah Right, after the job is done, go get a beer with them. Yeah Right, go watch a game with them. But during the job it's just the same way with employees. There is a personal relationship that I care about the benefit, I care about what's going on with my employees, but at the end of the day I have to back back up and realize that this is an employee business relationship and sometimes there are some hard things to say and if I leave it at just the friend zone, it's going to get. There's going to be too much emotion, there's going to be ego and pride in there and it's just going to get volatile.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, there is an exchange of commodity in what we do. I am giving you a new HVAC system and my service of putting it in, installing it, making sure it works, and you're giving me cash, Right. And so there is a different level of expectation when someone is paying me for me to do something for them because they have to set the bar or I have to set the bar with them, Right. We talk a lot about our client engagement agreement. That's where some of this conversation starts, because if I tell you what you should expect and what you should not expect for the money that I quoted you, that is then setting the bar of what you can complain about and can't complain about. Right, Right, If I say listen, before we get started, I just want you to know I work Monday through Friday nine to five.
Speaker 2:Weekends are my family time, If you can. You know? Blah, blah, blah. Please respect my weekends. If there's an emergency, obviously call me, but if not, send me that whole conversation that we always tell contractors to have.
Speaker 2:If I say that ahead of time, you as a customer like understand, I got it. If I don't set that boundary, set what you're actually paying me for, and then, in the middle of the job, you're calling me on Saturday. I'm like stop calling me. And you're like well, I'm paying you for this. I'm getting angry with you because you're pushing into my boundaries, though you don't even know my boundaries, Right? And so there's all sorts of things, and that's just an example of the front end conversation, but that's that's the basis of the relationship is setting up what you can and cannot expect for that money, Right? And so when we miss that side of it, it becomes like this relationship like well, I showed up on time. I showed up on time nine times and then the 10th time, I was 30 minutes late and you're yelling at me for that. I wouldn't do it to my friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well you're not my friend, you're my contractor. Well, and what's interesting is a real life example of kind of the other side of this. My mom just did a major renovation on her house and she has us, she has our company and she also has another friend that's in the contracting industry, known for 30 years, known for 30 years, and she specifically chose somebody else because she knows that she can't separate business and personal and if she needed to say, hey, I don't like that, I need this to be redone, she would not say that to me and she would not say that to her friend, because she understands that dynamic. And so she chose somebody that she didn't want to have a personal relationship. She was cordial. I guarantee my mom made muffins for this person. I guarantee she did. There was a cordial relationship there but it stayed business and she didn't want to intermingle that friendship because she knew that there would be a difficulty there, that she could get to a place where she's discontent and not willing to say something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the customer's got to be able to say, hey, contractor, you did mess this up and I need you to fix it, even though it's going to cost you five grand, right, and your mom's not going to say it to you, she's just going to eat it and pay the five grand. And that's what you're saying is exactly. I mean probably five.
Speaker 2:Six months ago we put out a podcast that's talking about we don't work with family and friends, and this is the whole, the whole reason, because it can ruin friendships, it can ruin relationships, because there's an expectation of a friend and there's an expectation of someone you're hiring, right, and we can't interchange those at all because as soon as those get mingled, there's some missed expectations in it. Right, I've done work for my family you know a cousin, a cousin of mine and I wasn't a part of it. I wasn't in the construction company, but, you know, I think there was some expectations that I would be involved, since they were going through my company and I probably missed something. They probably had some expectations that weren't set, but there was some tension there because I wasn't standing on site making sure things were going Micromanaging their job.
Speaker 1:For them, yes and so that in and of itself.
Speaker 2:We've had a bunch of examples of that, of where we were like we're not working with friends or family anymore, because those are the relationships that set wrong expectations. And I have expectations on my side as well of those friends and family. But that's not fair of me. I am selling them something. There is a commodity in exchange. Well, of those friends and family, but that's not fair of me. I am selling them something there was a commodity in exchange, and so we can't have those friendship expectations.
Speaker 1:Well, in the beginning of doing this differently is that you, you need to be able to see yourself in this right. Um, from what we just spelled out, you may be like I don't really do that. Right, look back at your past year or so. Where are the places where engagement with your client went bad? Or you have the thought or the statement this client is an idiot. They just don't understand, they're unreasonable, they, whatever. Look back at that and now that you're far enough removed from it, look at it and be really, really honest. Look deeper, right.
Speaker 1:What is it that made that client feel that way? What was going on with them? Why did they react that way? Because it's very easy to kind of overlook that or overshadow that with the way that they're acting and you don't really look at the why they're acting that way. And then look at how you responded. And was that response out of a protection of your ego, a protection of? I'm not going to let them treat me like this. I deserve better than this. Is it that type of thing? Just look at it Honestly. If you want to move forward differently and be able to to to not react that way, you got to first identify with him Like yeah, I don't do it all the time, but I do it sometimes, or the guy that's like, yeah, it's me all day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, and this is where I think there will be some pushback from a listener because when we're diving into what we do wrong as the contractor saying you know, I've cause.
Speaker 2:I've had this conversation with plenty of guys that have come through here and it's like I don't care, I don't need your respect. Client, Right, I'm going to give you respect, no matter what, because I care more about the reputation of my company, making money and getting onto the next job than earning, you know, trying to earn your respect. I don't respect me. Your respect. And again, this is, this is probably cause I'm a little uh, I'm, I'm an eight Enneagram, I'm a little bit more black and white.
Speaker 2:But like I don't need your respect for me to feel good, and I think that's where, as contractors that I've seen, there is this almost like this insecurity of I need people's respect to show me, because if you don't show me respect, then that means I don't have respect and that speaks about me and I don't need anything from you as a customer, right, I need fairness and I'm going to talk and call you towards the fairness and let's talk about that, and we'll talk about that in a moment.
Speaker 2:I don't need you to build my pride up, to feel okay, exactly, I don't need your respect. I'm going to give you respect because giving you respect is what you're paying for and you're also and I care about my reputation and making money, and just because you are not a sane person, I'm not going to let that ruin my company.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you how many times, dealing with with different coaching clients, that a client led with disrespect and respect was immediately pulled off the table. Yeah, I am. If they're going to disrespect me, I'm going to be a disrespectful back. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:And it's sad but that's like my three-year-old does that we had a project manager here a year or two ago that he was amazing with customers that he became friends with. If he liked them, they were with. If he liked them, they were getting the best service.
Speaker 1:They were getting five-star reviews, he was making profit and making people happy and and and because of that there was, there was a, there was a level of even exuded respect back of like I'm gonna over communicate, I'm gonna make sure that they continue feeling this way and I'm gonna over communicate and and would do an incredible job.
Speaker 2:His performance was based on their action, the customer's action.
Speaker 1:But as soon as the client said something negative or untrue or didn't even want to be friends with them.
Speaker 2:It was more like hey, I'm just, can you get that done? They were cold. Yes, yeah, he would give it right back. Right. And so he allowed the customer to control his emotions. He wasn't in control of his own emotions. He let other people control him, yeah. And so we were like hey, but if you can act towards these people the way you act towards these people, you're going to absolutely kill it here. Right. And his response is well, no matter what. They don't have to deserve it. They're buying an exchange of goods. Let's give them the goods or we should not take the job on. You said you are out, you're on the job. We said yes to it. You got to give them respect. You got to treat them the same way. So that's something that, when you're looking at what we're doing wrong, is figuring out why I'm acting right. Take a second and think through your customers and think about why I get so hot, why.
Speaker 1:I get so heated?
Speaker 2:When was a time that I was interacting with a customer and just got angry right? And so what we want to do is look at why that's triggering me, why I'm getting so angry, and how do we set that aside and set parameters around expectations on that and move forward.
Speaker 1:Well, and the byproduct, the result of that mentality, is that you are going to sacrifice reputation and revenue for what I, what my ego, is owed. Yeah Right, I'm owed them treating me better. I'm owed them appreciating what I do for them. I'm owed whatever, whatever it is, if that's an ego thing about me, and so I'm going to push and and uh, bulldoze my way in to put a bomb on my ego to make my ego feel better.
Speaker 2:But the byproduct of that is that you're sacrificing reputation to get to feel better about yourself well, in a friendship, if I did nine things right and then I did one thing wrong, jared's gonna be like, no, I know clark's heart, I know that the one thing benefit of the doubt. He does so many good things. He did that one thing. I'm going to talk to him about it. We're going to be cool. That's what a friendship is. In a business, you can do nine things right and it's like, yes, you should do nine things right, you should do all 10 things, because I'm paying you for 10 things. And so when you do the one thing wrong and the customer's like, well, this is wrong, you're like that's not fair. It's very fair. They're paying for all of it to be right. Like a great example is Delta Airlines that a month or two ago had the software glitch that caused days and days of delays, millions and millions of dollars lost for them. They had to reimburse people. They got just trashed.
Speaker 1:Delta's known for best in the business, best service, best customer service, cleanest planes, less little issues to none.
Speaker 2:They did nothing wrong outside of. They had a software from a company that had a data breach. Whatever it was that happened with the software. That was the issue. Delta didn't make that decision. They did 25 things right that day and the 26th thing was the software that they're using, that they're paying good money for, had a glitch in it and messed up the security access to it.
Speaker 2:So, that being said, nobody's like well, delta does show up on time most of the time and the flight attendant was really good and you know that pilot was kind when I ran it. Like we don't say that, we say you screwed up, you messed up my plans and now I can't travel on my vacation until tomorrow. I hate Delta Down with them, right, and their stock plummets, right, and so we treat businesses that way. But then when customers treat us that way, it's like that's not fair, you can't treat me that way, and so imagine yourself as a company like that. The standards that we hold companies to, we have to hold ourselves to and allow customers to hold us to that as well.
Speaker 1:Well, what you got to see is like, let's let's say those of you guys that are listening to the podcast and have taken some of this stuff to heart and you're actually trying to execute the beginning part of the 10-step process, doing the desk estimate, all the stuff, and you do all that. You go down the road. The client's got a couple of different contractors and they choose you because you've had a good process, but you're 10 to 15% higher than the other guy. Why did they choose to pay you more money than what they could have got it cheaper somewhere else? Because they believed by paying the extra money they're getting a company that the 10 out of 10 is going to happen. They're paying for it Right, and when it doesn't go that way, they have a right to be upset Right now. The way that they react and we're promising it.
Speaker 2:Correct, you go with me, I'll give you a good kitchen Like no one's like. Hey, listen, 75% of the time you're going to be happy with what you're paying for here.
Speaker 1:That's right. We don't tell them that because we don't expect that.
Speaker 2:We set the expectations that we're going to do a great job. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sorry, but it's natural that in that mindset on the client side, I paid the extra money because I thought that was going to get me a better experience. When the experience goes wrong, I can't control how they respond, but I can control the way that I respond and the way that I engage with the client. And if I respond and engage with them, you can't treat me this way. I'm a better company than this. No, no, no, you're not. You know, and it's this argument of thing.
Speaker 2:Be better.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and. But what I can do is I can learn to say okay, you know what, I'm not going to lead with my ego. I'm going to choose empathy and I'm going to look at the client and I'm going to say I'm not the. The moment that I say this client is just an idiot, they're dumb, they don't know what they're talking about. The moment that I'm thinking that, or that I've said that out loud internally to somebody in the company, is the moment that I need to hit a TO and say hold on, why, what's going on? Let me just be secure enough to apply empathy and go. What's going on with them? Why would they react so viscerally to something that seems like not a big deal? Investigate Again, like you said with the milk, because it's not personal. They said I don't like your milk, it's not personal. I have the calm spirit enough to say dang, tell me about that. Yeah, Investigate it.
Speaker 2:Well, I've had a guy tell me I'm like, all you got to do is like I'm so sorry. Tell me more about that. He's like well, I'm not sorry, I'm not apologizing for something I'm not sorry for. And it's like aren't you sorry, at minimum, that they're not having a good experience? Yeah, but that's their fault, mm-hmm, but are you sorry that they're having like, can you find any fault, even if it's 1%, that you I need them to acknowledge that they're crazy.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I hate to say this, this is you. As a contractor, I have the same conversation with my six-year-old Yep. Is there something you did wrong in this disagreement? Yeah, but they did. I understand they did stuff wrong. They're paying you. You're not paying them. Right, I understand they did stuff wrong. They're paying you, you're not paying them.
Speaker 2:So all I need you to do is say sorry and claim up to the 1% that you did wrong. That's all I need. Hey, I'm so sorry that the milk doesn't taste good. Can you give me more information about that? I don't want that to be anyone's experience of this. That's not saying that I'm a big screw-up. That's just saying hey, I don't want anyone's experience of my company to be this way. Tell me more about that. Let me hear and try and see if there's something I can fix. Or let me hear if you are unreasonable. Either way, I'm going to treat you the same way. I'm sorry for that. If you need your money back, that's fine. Hey, thanks for your feedback. I might fix it, I might not, depending on if it's valid. That doesn't mean that saying I'm sorry, I lose and they win right. That's not what our goal is as a company.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, one litmus test that I would say you could use to kind of see where you are on the scale of leading with your ego is Karen. We all know Karen goes on your Facebook, your Google reviews, whatever, and post this review of negative they did this, they did this, blah, blah, blah, blah. How are you going to respond? Yeah, what does your response look like to Karen when she is putting out a bunch of misinformation, not the facts, just her perspective, which is wrong? How are you going to respond to that? Right, if, just looking at that, most people, honestly, are going to go in and be like, nope, that's not what happened.
Speaker 1:This, this, you did this and you did this and you did this and blah, blah, blah and it it is led by the form of I'm going to justify myself. I'm going to justify myself myself, right? I'm going to justify myself that I didn't do this wrong. You were the crazy person, right? If that's the way that you're going to lead, you need to. You need to say wait, hold on, like what?
Speaker 1:What's my motivation here? Is it for me to not be put in a bad light and to justify myself, or is it to you know what I'm going to. I'm going to put the company first. I'm going to put the reputation first and lead a different way, which is something that you know, moving kind of into the next, the next section, kind of real life stuff. What do you do about this? For us, we learned that a lot of times, the person who is involved in that, um, the, for us, the management of the gc company we'd something like that would come across and the person who knows the most about it typically is the ones in front of it to respond. Right, because I can't respond, I don't know anything about the job, right, right, that person. Their first email has got to go through some redacting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do two to three people review every response for sure.
Speaker 1:Because and that is just a safeguard that we put in that helps us say, ok, this you're poking. You're poking a bear trying to trying to make yourself feel better. That's not necessary, it does no good. Yeah Right, this is a justified thing to say, but at the end of the day, we want to say, dang, mr Client, I'm so sorry about that, and be investigative. Can we take this offline? Have a phone call? I'd love to see what I can do to make this right. You're still achieving the same thing. You're engaging with the client. You're just not trying to make yourself look better in front of everybody else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, If you want to take this, take this to the next level. Try it with your spouse when you get in a fight. Don't tell them all the reasons are wrong, but find the thing that you did wrong, Apologize about that and ask what investigate right. And it changes everything in any relationship, especially in business. Let's dive into into. What you're saying is great. How do we continue to do this in real life? So, now that we know this is the issue, this is what we're doing how does the rubber meet the road?
Speaker 1:I've seen myself in this ego situation. How do I operate differently?
Speaker 2:And first and foremost and again, I know Clark and Jared processes Dead horse. We need to set up processes, procedures, that can handle the worst clients. If, if I see a problem client, it's a challenge. I want, I want to get a positive five star review from that person. Who's crazy, right, right, and so that's my that's. That's probably a little weird part of me, but for me I'm like I'm going to get a review from that person and I'm going to show that our company can make that person happy. That being said, we set up the processes and procedures. We do the front end stuff. There's a bunch of stuff that we have laid out in our processes to ensure that we have our butts covered, that we can argue anything without it being an argument, because it's proof. And then we talk about this and we've set up all of our processes to where, when, when something goes wrong, I don't find out about it in three months. When, when a mountain is formed out of the molehill, I can deal with it today.
Speaker 1:Well, and we also one of the specific ones, and I know that you know every everybody listening can't do this because of the size of your company. But one of the specific things that we had in place is a tiered level of engagement that we've got the project manager, we've got the division lead the head of department and then we've got the owner of the company that, depending on what was going on, project manager is in charge of all communication with the client.
Speaker 1:But we understand, just like we said before, there is sometimes that the sense of anger and frustration is just too high, it's too personal with that person and we need to move it to another level which escalating it to a higher level to a client. So it's a whole level of being able to de-escalate and get to a place where we can have conversations and not throwing hand grenades at each other.
Speaker 2:Well, so setting up those processes are great. That is a process in and of itself. You're not having that done by tomorrow, right, but as you're doing that even once those are set up the way you should deal with this type of client, this type of situation, the first thing we want to do is find both the problems Yep, it's not just one problem, there's two problems. That's right and everyone's like. Well, no, the issue is, I told the customer we'd be there at 9, and by 11, no one was there and they called up angry. Right, the problem is we showed up late, correct.
Speaker 1:That's the first problem. Yeah, there's a job site logistical issue.
Speaker 2:That's the first problem. The second problem in that scenario is that the customer now doesn't trust your word. They didn't show up. But the biggest problem is I don't trust that they're going to show up tomorrow. Clark told me one thing and that didn't happen. Next thing he tells me is probably not going to happen either. So there's two problems. We've got to talk about one and talk about the other one.
Speaker 2:So in doing that, I'm going to state facts. The first thing I'm going to say hey, help me understand. I thought I told you 11. No, you told me nine. Okay, understandable. Next thing I'm going to own any flaws, right? I'm going to go in and say hey, I thought we were going to be there at nine. I didn't realize the guys had to go by Home Depot and buy some materials for this job, materials for this job. That's a miscommunication on my part, right. And then the hardest part is that you got to over deliver. I now, even if that customer doesn't deserve it, even if she's absolutely crazy, cause I did tell her at 11,. I remember telling her on site yesterday it was going to be 11. And now she's mad that we weren't there at nine.
Speaker 2:Even if that's the case, I'm going to say I'm going to find the facts. Hey, I thought I told you that we're going to agree to disagree, so I'm just going to own that right. I'm going to own it, any flaw that might be there. Maybe I didn't say it to her, maybe I said to her husband, maybe I could be wrong, maybe. Either way, I'm going to own the flaws.
Speaker 2:I'm going to own that that went wrong and then I'm going to over-deliver. Hey, tomorrow morning, crew, when you're headed there, can you text me and let me know that you're headed there? I'm going to call her and let her know that we're going to be there at 858 or 902. Whenever it is, I'm going to over deliver on the next five promises or next five things I say, to earn that trust back and show her that it's not me, that's not who I am, that's not the product that we're delivering. You do those things Find the facts, own any flaw and then over-deliver. That is where we need to be at, to recover from any sort of these issues, not get angry.
Speaker 1:They don't deserve for me to act that way.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, they don't. You're right, except that they're paying you money to be on time, and you weren't on time.
Speaker 2:That is the difference between a business relationship and a personal relationship. So that is great, clark, find the two issues speak to both those issues. I'm going to speak to not being here on time and I'm going to speak to why, you can trust me, I'm going to speak to both issues, anytime there's one. I have some other issues, though. Right, there's some other problems with what you're saying. There are some specific situations that what you're saying doesn't work for.
Speaker 2:So, let's, we're going to close out this podcast walking through kind of three different issues that happen when clients are mad. The first issue it's one of three when the client's upset. Number one I don't have an answer for a client, right? So a client texts me and says hey, this door is not the right door that you installed in our kitchen pantry. We want it to be a glass door. I told you that. I thought it was quoted. Are you going to get it replaced for me? I don't know, right, I don't know. The second the answer that I have they're not going to like or they don't want, right? No, I put the door in that we talked about and they're going to be mad about that. And then number three is I don't have the money to make that client happy.
Speaker 2:A great example of this is a real-life example. Our company installed a roof as part of a full house renovation. On the quote it was architectural shingle. What was installed was a three-tab Big price difference between the two and you can't just switch it out. You got to rip the whole thing off and start over and put the new one on. So it is a $8,000 difference right On that project. If we didn't have that money, what do I do? Right, I don't have the answer for a client. I don't know what we're going to do.
Speaker 2:My answer is not what they're not going to be happy with or yeah, I got the answer, but I don't have the money to do it. Those are the three issues that we find contractors in, so let's walk through those individually Jared. If I don't have an answer for a client, what do I do? The client says hey, wrong door. What's my response?
Speaker 1:Um, typically what I do in that scenario is I engage with honesty and say you know what I don't? I don't know the answer to that. Give me some time to come up with a solution. What? What do you think? What would you like to have happen? Right, just to let them. Well, you know what really should I need this, this, this and this. Okay, let me give me some time and I will be back to you by the end of the day with an answer to this question. Yeah, the big piece of that is don't just say I don't know. I'll let you know when I find out. Yep, right, you need to again lay out the plan. Yep, right, I'm not sure the answer to that. And this goes I mean, while you're on site and you're doing an estimate for a client and the client comes up and says hey, how much would cabinets be? $3,000. Or $30,000.
Speaker 2:I mean $30,000. Yeah, or $30,000.
Speaker 1:I'm not quite sure. Just say you know what? I don't know that off the top of my head, but if you'll give me, search that today and I will come up with a solution and have it to you by the end of the day, yeah Right, that that goes along with our closed loop theory. That goes along with like I'm I'm not going to just babble off some shenanigans to them Um, but it also lets them know I, what you're saying to me, matters and I want to. I want to give it enough attention, um, so give me some time.
Speaker 2:I want three things too. I want fact finding. I want to be an investigator. Okay, tell me more. Let me go look at the estimate. Let me understand this. I'm I'm in my fact finding mode right now. Yeah, not in an answer mode. I don't have an answer for you. I'm looking for it and I'm going to hunt it down. And then number three either you that I don't care, or the customer is like oh, he's on top of this, right, and so I'm communicating. All right, what I'm going to do. Let me go look at what we had on the quote. I don't remember exactly. I'm going to go check our order. I'm going to go check this. Can you give me till five today to hunt this down and figure out the answer for you? We'll make sure it's right. You make sure that it's right. That doesn't mean I'm going to replace it for free. I'm going to make sure it's right, which means that what's right might be that this is the door that you'd be ordered, that you'd signed off on, that you wanted.
Speaker 1:That's what it is, and a lot of times in that situation when I've been in that situation, just leading with customer service quote, unquote, air quotes, customer service and just saying, yeah, no problem, I'll get that taken care of for you. Without the data and information, you may be in the situation of the third one we talked about I don't have the money to do what they're at.
Speaker 2:I said I'd do it Now.
Speaker 1:I'm like, no, I'm not doing that for her.
Speaker 2:Why do I commit to do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's been plenty of times that I've gone back and looked at okay, how much money did we spend how? Where are we at on this thing? You know what I? I'm going to break even on that thing, but I can do it for them and make them happy. I'll move forward and do it Right. Or I've made money in different spots in the in the business and so I can. I can appease the client with this and I'm willing to eat that because it is my error, right. But there are also plenty of times that I went back and I'm like I mean I'm going to have to come out a straight profit from the company and figure it out, which I've.
Speaker 1:You know I've come to you before and said, hey Clark, error on our side, it was a miscommunication. Somehow. Our guys went and painted the whole inside of this house, or wrong, freaking color, yeah, and I got to go back and repaint it. Yeah, right, and it's not justifiable that the client should have to pay for that. They did nothing wrong. It is a complete error on our side. I don't have. It's going to cost me more profit than I'm making on the job to do it.
Speaker 1:Can I execute this Right? And there's a choice that we make sometimes where it's like, okay, we've got enough working capital right now that we'll pay the money. See if you can call in some favors with the crew. Can you call your Sherwood Williams guy and get it cheaper? Whatever right, but take the time to pause and tell your client what you're executing the plan. Okay, what you're saying to me is valuable. I want to make sure that I make an educated decision on this for you and us. Can you give me till five o'clock and I'll be back with you with a plan.
Speaker 2:First thing fact-finding, investigating, setting a timetable of what I'm gonna do about it so you can rest easy.
Speaker 2:Next, what if I don't have the right answer? What if I have the answer that they do not want right, and so that one is? A great example of that would be we worked with a company. They A great example of that would be we worked with a company. They installed this metal framework on this thing and it started rusting. And the customer didn't call them for about 18 months and the rust got worse and worse and worse, to where now the structure has to be replaced as opposed to being able to— Sand it down, refinish it whatever it is, and so the answer that the customer is looking for is we're going to come out and replace it.
Speaker 2:The answer that we needed to give them was if you would have let us know it was under warrant, it was under warranty and if you would have let us know immediately, we could have fixed that. But because you didn't, more damage has been caused and that fix that we would have done can't happen now, right. So the customer is going to be angry, so what I'm going to do that's. That's a little more cut and dry. There's other things. A better example let's go back to the door. With the door, maybe I didn't specify what type of door. Maybe no one put that there. I just got a door and got it. They're not going to like the answer because they didn't pay for a nicer door. This is what I quoted. They're not going to be happy. They want the door that they thought they were getting, right, right. And so, with that, I'm doing the first round of stuff investigating, fact finding. The next level, though, when I know they're not going to be happy, as now I'm being a lawyer, I'm building a case, but I also not a case of all the reasons that they need to go to jail Right, my case is. Well, this is what led us to this decision. I would have done X, but on the quote it said Y. This should have happened, but it didn't because you said this. Whatever it is, I'm going to find the truth and not just roll over and do it for free but say, hey, unfortunately and my tone, this is where guys get it wrong a lot is I need to show I'm not going to do that for you. And they get big and they get they get big and they get louder and they get more aggressive, cause like I can't replace that door. That wasn't on our quote. I wasn't supposed to, but and instead it is an advocacy, it is ah, jared man I am. I hate this, but look at the quote. Look what we.
Speaker 2:I quoted you $125 for a hollow core door. I can't do a glass door for that price point. That's why this is the door that I quoted. Now, if you want the glass door, we can do that. You got to pay for the difference. I'm going to cut you a deal on the labor. I'm going to split the labor with you, which means I'm just not going to make profit on it, and so you can go through it and have a solution and just be disappointed with the client. Right, it's Jared, I'm so, man, it's I. I remember you saying that, but we never put it on the quote. If you want that, I've put some numbers together. That glass door is actually 350. Uh, so we'd have to buy that and then we've got to have a guy install it. But I'm going to cover most that and maybe 200 extra extra bucks. So I need 550. If you want that door switched out, right, I'm so sorry, but that that would have made it on the original quote. If that's what I thought you wanted.
Speaker 2:Right, and so they might not be happy with that answer, but I can justify it by showing them through my processes and procedures I had tracked what we said. I have email in the software that's all sucked in so I can see when they approve stuff. I can see the estimate and the writing. So all of that, I'm building that case. But I'm coming not as a prosecutor but as an advocate like ah man, this stinks, jared, this stinks for us as a unit that you're didn't get the door that you want, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and most of the time in in that situation, client comes to you with some kind of accusation of fault, right? Um, the natural instinct is to go back and and develop as much ammunition, proof and truth of like no, I'm right, you're wrong, yeah Right. And the by-product of that if, if that's the only focus that I've got the by-product of that is that you will both be standing on islands separate from each other, stomping your feet yeah Right, with no resolution that is going to at least be a compromise in the middle, yeah Right, it's like no, I'm not paying for this because blah, blah, blah, blah, you did this and you did this and you did this. And again you're stomping your foot on your island and they're over there. You're stomping your foot on your island and they're over there. Well, your guys didn't blah, blah, blah and they left the trash out there. And they start Now your client's bringing up everything that's possibly happened.
Speaker 1:I tripped over a wire. I've had somebody literally come back and be like you left a screw outside and I tripped on it and now my back hurts. How does this have anything to do with the flash on the paint that you don't like? Right? And so what you need to do is, yes, go go, fact find, get the information, but then come back, like you said of like, oh dude, I'm so sorry, the hollow, hollow, hollow core door.
Speaker 1:Right, we went through this. We went through this, this estimate together, we tried to fine-tooth it and we both missed it. We were reviewing this estimate together and we just missed the fact that we had talked about that you wanted this type of door, but we missed the fact that it didn't get changed on the estimate. So what you've paid for is this door, but what you wanted is that one. Yeah, I can't just give you this other thing, but can we come up with a compromise? In the middle I messed up. You missed it, we both missed it. How about this you pay for the door and I'll pay for the labor?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's what you just said of the who's right I'm right or you're right. Who's going to win? Who's going to win, who's going to lose in this? If we change it around and just change your rhetoric, the way you say something matters, and so all we have to do is, instead of saying, I'm going to prove why I'm right and you're wrong, is my goal is to prove why you're right. Oh no, you're not. Dang it Like it's a. I'm on your team trying to prove why we owe you that free door.
Speaker 2:Now in reality I'm not. I want to make sure I don't pay for it, but I'm saying the exact same thing from a different perspective. And so it's not lying, it's not false, it's. I really want the best for my customer and I'm going to represent them, I'm their lawyer and I'm going to say hey look, I'm looking at the facts of this case bud. It looks like that contracting company doesn't have to pay for that.
Speaker 1:If you're both on your islands lobbing grenades at each other, nothing's going to win. But if you go over to their island and start tossing grenades the other direction we got to get them. But their grenades keep coming back and hitting on your island.
Speaker 2:Wait a minute, wait a minute so next time you are in a disagreement and you've got to tell a client something they don't want, just try that, take a second and look back and say, okay, how do I advocate like this, like I was them, like I'm that person's husband? Yeah, right, how do I? How I'm like, oh man, bad news. Look, I'm looking at the paperwork they got us. Yeah, right, come from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Now, not not even well, we both missed it. Even like you can go that route if it's not a a, an emotionally high one, but even like, oh, look, right here, it says that Dang it. Okay, so that's why we ordered that door. That makes sense. Um, I do remember you saying that, but it didn't make it on this quote, man, okay, so what we can do to fix this is X, y and so it's a. I'm disappointed, I'm mad that that my company doesn't have to pay for it, right, it's that that that tone, even though it's not, I don't want to pay for it, but I'm. I want you to have a good experience, right, and so switching that up changes that, the, the tone of the conversation and their warmness towards you or their anger towards you. It's going to curb a lot of that, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:The, the, the, the next one, yes, um, the, the last one that we're going to talk about. Um, this is the place where, um, and the reason why the contracting business, uh, has such a bad reputation. Yeah, it's this spot. It is the mismanagement of money that gets you to the place where something is justified. You should get it done. I don't have the money for it. I have misspent the money, I've mismanaged the money and this also converts into it is personal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, because You're going to be harmed client because I made a personal. Yeah, right, yeah. Because you're going to be harmed client because I made a mistake.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on the other side, if I come out of pocket to pay for that thing, I can't put food on my family's table. I don't have any more money Right? So literally it converts this thing into a personal situation and is and is why contractors do a couple of different things. One ghost, bail, bail, they're out.
Speaker 2:They can't reach me, then I don't have to pay for that.
Speaker 1:The magnet is left on the street and the van's gone Right, or they get super combative yeah, super combative, unjustified. They're like I'm not paying for this. This is impossible. Blah, blah, blah, and it's a very, very volatile situation.
Speaker 2:So there are a thousand different factors that we can't give advice on this specific one because of, because every situation is different. Yeah, but in general, if this happens, let's go back. I think the three tab versus architectural shingle is a great example. Yeah, let's go back to I think the three tab versus architectural shingle is a great example. They chose a more or they're paying for a more expensive one. I put a cheaper one on. It's already installed. It's going to cost me eight grand.
Speaker 2:I don't got eight grand to replace that, right, and so in that situation, this would be my advice in that specific situation yeah, first off, hopefully we're doing more than just a roof and I'm going to go through and find all the free stuff I did. I'm not asking them to pay for that, but it is more ammunition for me to show I have lost money on these things trying to do the right thing, right. So I'm going to go and be like, okay, there's about three grand worth of stuff that I could have sent change orders for that I didn't. Now, again, that takes paperwork, that takes logs, that takes knowing what we did and what we didn't do, what I approved the guys. But if I can gather that information. That's the first bit of ammo that I'm putting in the gun. Next, I'm going to go to the customer and I'm going to have the heart to heart because it's going. They have to find out at some point.
Speaker 2:And so what I would say is hey, I understand you want architectural. We put a three tab on. It's going to cost me eight grand. I have some clients that haven't paid me. I'm in between a couple of jobs where I'm waiting for a deposit from another one that they owe me money. I've got some unpaid invoices and as soon as I get those I can do this, but right now I literally don't have it. So I've got some solutions right. That's actually the second part. The first part is we've done all this stuff for free. I'm not going to charge you. That's three grand worth of work. But here's my big issue. I'm going. I know we've again. There's so many factors I can't do it.
Speaker 2:If you're doing a full renovation, it's hey, we've got 20 grand left on this renovation that I haven't invoiced you for. I got about five grand left in profit on that. So what I'm going to do is, if you want this, the shingles changed out right now. Can you go ahead and pay me five grand upfront right now so I can get that done and the rest of this job I'm going to do at cost? But you're just prepaying for some of the stuff I'm about to do Now. If you don't have that, it's a different situation.
Speaker 2:But it's having that conversation and being honest. Like hey, right now some people owe me money, some jobs haven't started. I'm in between right now on dollars, I don't want you to get scared. We're here, we're going to keep doing it, but it's a couple weeks valley that I don't have the cash to get that changed out right now. If you want to work it out this way, you can. There's so many factors. It's hard to say, but all the way down to we're done with the job. They want that switched out and it's like I don't have it, I will have it. You got to be patient with me. If you want to go ahead and get it done. Go ahead and get it done, and I'm going to work out a payment plan where I give you 500 bucks a month for the next 16 months. Right, whatever it takes to get this done, I'm going to stand behind it.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think, going along with the theme of what we've we've said before in this situation, perfectly honest, it can go South to where legal is involved right, it can. But if, if you're leading with, you've taken the time to do all the investigating, right, get your notes, get your estimate, what's paid for, what's not paid for, all the stuff that leading to you go and being able to go to the client and say, hey, here's the facts, here's where we're at, whether you've got, uh, change orders that are due to you or not, right, whether maybe you do, maybe you don't, but you're going to them and putting the facts out there of like, look, I just want to have a heart to heart with you. I want to have. This is where, a lot of times in our company that we've said, hey, we're in really, really different places and if we don't come together with a solution, this is going to go even worse than it is right now. Right, so we call a time out, nobody's doing any work, and so you have that conversation with a client, leading with humility, leading with honesty, truth. You don't have to be a wet blanket. That's not what we're trying to do, but we're having a conversation where you're in charge, you're leading, and it results in options that are available.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here, here are the. Here is the way that I see the way through. We can do it this way. If that's not available to you, we can do it this way. Right, and I would recommend having that spelled out in an email. Yeah, like here's, here's what happened, here's what's going on, here's where I'm at, here's where you're at, here's the solution that I think best resolves the situation. If you're not okay with that, or if that's not available, then I think we could possibly do this.
Speaker 2:I would also involve a lawyer if I think it's going to go legal. If I can't pay and they're just out 10 grand, I'm going to send that resolution to a lawyer first and it's going to cost me money. But I'd rather spend 200 bucks on a lawyer reviewing paperwork to make sure I'm not setting myself up to be liable but still trying to solve the problem.
Speaker 1:But I think you know, most people know you know what I think that I can. The solution that I've come up with is enough grace on my side and enough on their side that we're kind of I think that we should be able to resolve this right. Then there's the other ones there. It's like I don't care who you are, nobody's going to be happy with whatever solution I can come up with. This is going, you know, you're going to know whether it's this is likely to go negative or not. Yeah, right, so you hope not to get there right. And over decades of doing this, uh, I I think a small percentage of time that we've gotten to a spot where it's like client was just unreasonable, got to a place, we gave them solutions and they were like nope, I'm going legal Like very, very minimal amount of times, but you're in the business long enough stuff like that's going to happen, right, you know.
Speaker 2:So if you want more of this I know this has been a long podcast, but we will love to chat with you. If you struggle with any of this stuff, if you need more information about this, if you're in a situation right now that you want a piece of advice, call us up, hit us up, go to the website. You can talk to Jared or me through our website. No-transcript.
